Successful Relationship with Emma

If You Choose To Divorce, Choose Empowering Settlements with Ease with Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (Ep. 22)

• Emma Viglucci • Episode 22

Share episode

Sometimes couples choose to divorce. Though we are super pro making the relationship work, and by work we mean Thrive, sometimes couples decide they’ve invested enough into the relationship and prefer to take a different route to find their happiness.

We support our couples in the decisions they make for themselves, their family, and their life, and we help them through whatever transitions they find themselves in. Through working on the relationship, they might realize that they don’t prefer to stay together after all and choose to pursue separating instead.

If this happens while working with us, we guide them in having the most beautiful divorce process they can manage. Our goal is to minimize the heartache and trauma of this experience for everyone involved, and to assist them transition into a new life situation that works better for them and their family. We encourage divorcing with the spirit of ease, compassion and generosity.

In today’s episode I’m excited to have a conversation with Glenn Dornfeld, an experienced mediator, about the different options people have to pursue getting divorced and he nuances of getting divorced through an empowering process that leads to satisfying settlements with ease.  Hope you enjoy it!

…………………………………………………
🌟ABOUT OUR GUEST:

Glenn E. Dornfeld, Esq., is a mediator, trainer/mentor, and family/divorce attorney with a solo mediation and legal practice in Manhattan, serving both New York and New Jersey through mediating divorce cases. He is frequently asked to teach and coach mediators in various settings, is on law councils’ joint Ethics Committees, has chaired or co-chaired many mediation annual conferences, and regularly presents at them. Glenn has been awarded the Abel Award for service to the field of family and divorce mediation. You can find him at DivorceMediationAttorney.com.

Find him also here:
LinkedIn


Gift from Glenn:
Aside from the free initial consultation, should a couple decide to work with Glenn he’ll give them their first hour also at no charge when they mention Emma and this Podcast Episode.

…………………………………………………
🌟MORE ON THIS EPISODE:

Watch the YouTube Video!

More about the podcast on our Podcast Page

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STAY CONNECTED:
Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn | X | Pinterest | YouTube

DISCLAIMER: This content is meant to support your Journey and not as a replacement for professional assistance. Additionally, the ideas and resources provides by our guests are their ideas and recommendations alone and not necessarily a reflection of the host’s.



Emma Viglucci:

Hello lovelies, Welcome to another episode. I am so excited for today's topic and guest. We're going to be talking about mediation, and my guest is a mediator. He sheds some light as to what are the different options that people have if they're considering divorce from litigation to negotiation, to collaborative divorce, to mediation so that you could choose for yourself what might feel as the best fit for you. We also talk about misconceptions about mediation what a good mediation process looks like, the difference between an experienced and good mediator versus one that's not so experienced, what the process might look like, how Glenn does it, what his process is like and also what are some different ways to break impasses and different ways to deal with power imbalances. It is a super interview and conversation. We also highlight what a good, beautiful, successful mediation process looks like at the end of the day. Stay tuned, you're highlight what a good, beautiful, successful mediation process looks like at the end of the day. Stay tuned, You're in for a treat. Let me read you his bio and then we'll say hello to Glenn.

Emma Viglucci:

Glenn Dornfeld is a mediator, trainer, mentor and family divorce attorney with a solo mediation and legal practice in Manhattan. Almost all of his cases are divorce mediations. He also handles matrimonial negotiations but does not litigate. He is frequently asked to teach and coach mediators in various settings and has presented multiple times at both the Bar Association of the City of New York and the Courthouse of the Supreme Court of the County of New York.

Emma Viglucci:

Glenn is a past president of both the New York State Council on Divorce Mediation and the Family and Divorce Mediation Council of Greater New York and he is on those councils joint ethics committee. He has chaired or co-chaired many conferences for ACR's family section and NYS CDM and has served on APFM's conference committee several times and regularly presents a mediation conferences. He has been awarded the Abel Award for service to the field of family and divorce mediation and Glenn has graduated summa cum laude from Princeton University and received his law degree from NYU School of Law. He is admitted to practice law in New York and New Jersey Without further ado. Let's say hello to Glenn. Hi, Glenn, how are you doing today? So good to have you.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

It's great to be here, Emma. Thank you so much. I'm doing great. I hope you're doing great too.

Emma Viglucci:

I am Thank you so much. I'm so looking forward to this conversation. I want to hook up our audience with all things mediation so that they happen to go down this path of choosing to not be together any longer, that they do it in the best way possible for them, and so I think that you're the best person to talk to that. So that's why I wanted to have you on.

Emma Viglucci:

Yeah, you're welcome. So the first question that I want to ask you, so that the audience understands, is what is the difference for somebody who's getting divorced between getting divorced through litigation, negotiation, collaborative divorce or mediation, like we're talking about today?

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Okay, so the traditional way of divorcing is two people hiring lawyers and everybody goes to court and that's just the default. That has been the way that people divorced for decades. Um, that gets expensive and complicated and it heightens the um, the conflict between people, because each it drives them apart. Each, each person has to say some extreme things to try to win. Then the other person says extreme things too, and the kids are in the middle and it can get real ugly. As everybody knows, you hear about awful divorces all the time. So that's a litigation.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Negotiation is the way most divorces are actually resolved, most divorces. Even if someone starts a divorce in court, most of the time they settle the case without each person having to appear in court and do depositions and rehearse their testimony and all that stuff. Usually, somewhere along the line, the lawyers will say okay, we can settle this case. Sometimes more quickly, sometimes after a longer amount of time. Divorces can take two or three years in some cases to resolve, which is really bad because people's lives are on hold for that whole period of time. Yeah, then there's a. I'll talk about mediation last. Then there's a I'll talk about mediation last.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

There's a process called collaborative divorce, in which people agree to kind of walk the high road and they agree not to take any nasty steps and everybody signs kind of a contract on what they're, what they're not going to do. And if anybody violates that contract then by the contract they all have to fire their lawyers and start again, which is why there's some kind of enforcement to their agreement to play fair and to not do nasty things and to share information and stuff like that. Nice, yeah. So collaborative is better in many cases than litigation. The downside is it can get really expensive.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

It's kind of an involved process. Sometimes people bring in a whole team involved. There's a therapist on the team, there's a therapist on the team, there's an accountant on the team, there is a collaborative kind of organizer on the team, and so because of that you're paying a lot of people a lot of the time. And then there's mediation, and in mediation what people do is they hire a neutral party and I play that role many times, yes and the mediator helps them work out the terms of what will be a divorce settlement, and they're paying one person to do that rather than each having their own attorneys, and a good mediator will take them at their schedule and help them find their path through, rather than an attorney saying, well, I can't really deal with this for a month or whatever, and then the other attorney's on vacation and then the judge is on vacation.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

And then you know, who knows what happens, and then the judge is on vacation and then you know who knows what happens. So it's a very direct process and it gets really to the issues that they have to address, rather than them positioning or making threats or having to say things that aren't necessarily true, as people do in litigation. It deals with the real problems and hopefully gets them to an answer.

Emma Viglucci:

Yeah, I love how you're describing all the different options that people have and mediation, which that's what you do. I love that option. It's so streamlined. I actually was honored to witness one of your sessions in the past and you're fabulous at it. And it's such a beautiful process in that it takes into consideration the people. It's not just the papers and the motions and the numbers and the things and the other things and everybody tries to win and up the other and I just. It gets so nasty. So, observing that was so pretty, it almost felt like I was in a therapy session, which is nice. I mean, you have both. You hold both people. Both people are right, both people need to count, both people right. So how do we do the best for both? And that's so nice, as opposed to like trying to up each other Sometimes I call it a therapeutic approach to a legal result.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

I love that you should trademark that.

Emma Viglucci:

Yeah, because I'm not dealing with all of the stuff they don't have to deal with.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

It's like let's get down to the point, and I will gently redirect them to what we're talking about. If they go off on a tangent or if they start having an argument, that's not directly what we're talking about. And sometimes I even point out to them you know, you can pay me to listen to you argue about what you did three years ago, and that's fine with me. If you do that, you're going to pay me, or you can't. We can talk about how much child support would be. And when I do it in a gentle way, I'm not shaming them, but I'm reminding them that we're here for a purpose and also that this is costing something. And very often they say you know, you're right, let's talk about I'm sorry about what I was saying, let's talk about this.

Emma Viglucci:

That's fabulous, and I actually witnessed that and I was so impressed by how tactfully you deliver that message and cut right through, because in therapy, we are there to talk about all the things. The price is to see like, nope, we're not doing that, we're staying here and I was like, oh cool, that's good and people actually listen Right. And it's like I mean I say similar things like oh cool, that's good, and people actually listen right. And it's like I mean I say similar things Like listen, you guys could fight and we could use a time like that, but you don't need me for that. You could do that on your own, you know. So let's do something different. I say that all the time. So it makes complete sense that let's stay focused, let's take care of you the right way, Like you could do this funky business somewhere else, right, it doesn't serve you. Beautiful, Thank you. Yeah, so, Glenn, tell me what are some misconceptions that people have about mediation and how they might look at it? Crooked.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Okay, A couple of things. Sometimes people think that mediation is a process only to get them to get back together to reconcile, oh interesting.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

They think of it as if it is couples therapy, which it has a little bit of a feel for it like that, but it's very much. It's really whatever they want and if they want to divorce, or if one person wants to divorce, the other person ultimately has to accept that and it may take longer or may take shorter, yeah, but if I'm going to help them get divorced, then that's what we're there for. So it's not a reconciliation process Very good. Another misconception people often have is that they have to be friendly. They have to. You know, mediation is only for people where they're agreeable and there are no arguments and they're on the same page. And I'm happy to take cases like that, of course. But it's not really where I prove myself, it's not really where I give people value. It's kind of.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

I think of it like being a dentist, like if all I did was cleanings, I wouldn't. I'm not, I'm not working hard to be a dentist, I'm not keeping in practice. But if people come in and they need a root canal and they need, they have six cavities that I have to drill in one day. That's where I'm. I'm, you know, showing my value as a dentist and so as a mediator. I mean, I've worked with people where they threw books at each other in the middle of a session. I worked with people where I had to pull the man off of the woman. They were sitting on a couch and threw each other and he, all of a sudden was strangling her. I had to pull him and it's all good.

Emma Viglucci:

You know, I mean, I'm not happy that that that he reacted that way.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

But they certainly don't have to be friendly with each other and obviously, if there's a divorce, in many situations one of them is going to be angry, and so and it's fine I take what comes in and I help them where they are. I meet my clients where they are.

Emma Viglucci:

That's terrific, so I really appreciate that. Second one, because I think that that's a real misconception and I think I'm a little at fault of buying into that one myself that for the mediation process to work well, or I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for people who are being like really nutty, that they're being so nutty, how you know and I use that word so lightly right, so no, no, I said to anybody coming from a therapist people are nutty but but yeah, people could get out there, right, and so it's hard to think that that couple could benefit from mediation and maybe that that the two out there couples, couple could benefit from mediation, and maybe that that the two out there couples might not benefit from this and maybe you could talk to that. But I appreciate the point that you don't have to be so friendly for this to work. You could still have animosity, you could still have anger, you could still have things going on. You're going through a divorce, you're going to have stuff. You could still benefit from this process.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

so I appreciate that they have a common interest in if the heat is high between them. They have a common interest in getting done. Yes, they even though they might hope that the other something bad happens to the other person at this time and hopefully they get past that eventually. Yeah, they both want to. Their lives are are awful at this point. They both want to move through it and so I can say, okay, I know that you're furious because the other one had an affair or whatever you know, so you want to get divorced. So let's get you divorced. So let's talk about who's going to have the kids when. Because you need to do that to get divorced Sometimes.

Emma Viglucci:

I don't do this often.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

But sometimes people can't even be working with me at the same time, and so I'll do what's called shuttle mediation. I'll meet with one of them, then the other. It's a little bit less direct, a little bit less efficient, but sometimes that's the only way that they can cooperate in the process. And so I'm taking the meat of what they're saying and I'm taking out, like all the emotional content, like the person might say he's a son of a bitch and he did this to me and that's why I want a million dollars.

Emma Viglucci:

And so I will talk to the other person and say, okay, they want a million dollars. Right, you deliver a clean request, Right, exactly, and so it cuts that out and they can respond million dollars. You deliver a clean request, Right exactly.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

And so it cuts that out and they can respond to it. And the other person might say you know, I can't believe they're asking for that kind of money, because they did this and this to me. I'll give them $750,000.

Emma Viglucci:

So then I go to the first person and say, okay he said $750,000.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

And so I'm cutting out all of the stuff that makes it harder for them anyway yeah, perfect, that's beautiful and I love the language shuttle mediation.

Emma Viglucci:

That makes a lot of sense. Sometimes we do that in couples therapy. Sometimes the sessions are so intense there's you can be productive like we're just like I can't even speak, and I consider myself to be a pretty good therapist. I mean, I have a lot of years under my belt and I have a very high tense couples, but sometimes it's just like dudes, we can't get anything done. You know, let me meet with you separately so we could get some headways, and then let's come back together.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

So it happens Exactly the same thing, yeah totally.

Emma Viglucci:

I hear you Beautiful. So are couples that shouldn't go to mediation. You're just like I don't know if I'm your person or that the mediation process wouldn't necessarily serve them.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

One kind of person who shouldn't go to mediation is if they don't want a fair process, if they don't want to disclose all that they have, because it's all about open disclosure. If they want to try to disclose all that they have, because it's all about open disclosure. If they want to try to get away with something, they shouldn't go to mediation. If they want to punish their spouse, for whatever reason, they shouldn't go to mediation, because that's just not what the process is. Because that's just not what the process is. If they're not entering in good faith, they should not go to mediation.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

But I work with people who have attorneys all the time and I always encourage them to consult with attorneys as they need to throughout the process. So even if people have tons of money or have lots of legal questions, it's fine for them to come to mediation and they can. They can consult as they need to and sometimes they bring their attorney into the session. That's fine with me, as long as as long as the other person knows that they're going to the other. You know, as long as person B knows person A is bringing an attorney, person B might also want to bring their attorney.

Emma Viglucci:

That's right.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

So, but yeah, if they want to, if they're trying to just get over on the other person or get over on the system, if they don't want to, if they don't want an honest or fair process, mediation is not for them.

Emma Viglucci:

I love that distinction because then, yeah, you can still be angry, you can still be hurt, you can still be all the things, but you still want to do right by the other person. You still want to hold high standards, take the high road, do the right right by by your legacy of this marriage and your children and everything else. You don't want to be in court throwing your money away, spending a gazillion million years there, right? So if you, if you want to do, do it the right way, then you do it nicely, like this. But, like you're saying, if you just want to fight to win because the other person is a jerk or whatever, an SOB, and you hate their guts, then this is potentially not right. If you're out for blood, then this is not the process. Very nice, right. So you could be angry and upset, but as long as you still want a fair process, you could have all your feelings. It's not about that, terr, but as long as you still want a fair process, you could have all your feelings.

Emma Viglucci:

It's not about that Terrific, Awesome. So can you share a little bit about, then, what the process looks like? How would you get the couple started? What should they expect from this process? What it kind of looks like so they have a feel for what to expect if they were to engage in something like this?

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Sure, before my first session with a couple, I will send them a couple of documents so that they can prepare for the session. I don't want them to focus too much on having to do a lot of homework before our first session, because sometimes people freak out or sometimes they'll spend 10, 15, 20 hours preparing and a lot of the preparation will be wasted because we might not ever get to that. So at a first session, before a first session, I send them a couple of documents to help them prepare and I try to put them at ease so that they can come in without freaking out.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Good, at a first session we're usually looking to kind of establish the guidelines what are we going to do there? Most of my couples will say at the first session I'm really nervous, I've never done this before, right, most people say that, right, and of course most people have never divorced before and they don't know that much about mediation. There are misleading depictions of mediation in the movies and on TV and you know they don't know what to expect. Yeah, so I like to say that at the first session we're looking at the forest and then later on we'll look at the trees. So what are the? What are the things that they? What are the questions that they have to answer? So they have to answer. Maybe are they going to keep the apartment or are they going to sell it. Another question is if there are kids, who are the kids going to be with when?

Emma Viglucci:

You know what's really interesting. So obviously you work with new york city people.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Because you said apartment instead of a house, yes and of course, houses too, and some people have multiple properties I worked with. I worked with a couple where, um, the husband would made six million dollars a year, you know. He's like when they had properties all over the place and who's getting this, the one with the ski house, and who's getting the Manhattan one, and who's getting the one in Puerto Rico, and you know. So, yeah, whatever comes in. So, anyway, the first session I'm kind of setting the guidelines and kind of collecting information from them to help structure the process for the next session and the session after that. So, okay, you're going to need to bring me your retirement statement so we can work on that. The next session, fine, Okay, good.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

We're not going to necessarily do it at a first session, but you'll share reports and if you need my help, I'm happy to provide it. I encourage them to do as much as possible between them. Yes, good If they can, and some couples can get a lot of work done between them. Some couples can't do anything and some couples can deal with certain issues and not other issues.

Emma Viglucci:

Like they can deal with the kids but not the money.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Or they can work out the residents, but not child support. So whatever they can work out makes the process quicker and cheaper. And, most importantly to me even though not necessarily to them, most importantly to me I'm helping them model that they can work on things going forward. Because they're going to divorce and they're going to leave my you know I'm going to send them a divorce judgment months later and then they're going to live another 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years. I mean, if they have young kids, they're going to have to be at college graduations, they're going to have to be at bedside, somebody's going to get sick, and so I'm modeling for them that they can work out, they can have a conversation, even if there are certain hot button issues, and so I don't tell them that that's what I'm doing for them, because that's not why they're there, but I'm trying to kind of pattern that for them and you know, at the end I might say look at that, you figured out how to sell the house between you.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

You didn't need my help great super you know what?

Emma Viglucci:

I would offer that because I mean I offer it when people might get to this place. I say to them listen, whether you continue together or not, you still want to be in good standing. You have children. You're going to be in each other's lives for a long time. So let's figure this out, regardless of your status and what you choose to do at the end of the day, right? So let's figure out how you guys work together, so for sure.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

I sometimes mention that but I try to be really subtle and gentle with that, because I find that when my clients think that I have an agenda, sometimes they don't buy into that agenda or they're not ready to buy into it.

Emma Viglucci:

And if I say that, one of them might say I don't want to talk about what we're.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

I don't want to talk about ever being in the same room with this person, so I need to, I need to be really gentle and subtle on doing that. So I lay the groundwork, but I, I don't.

Emma Viglucci:

I don't push any message and that's fair, because by the time they have gotten to you, like it's a very delicate situation and we want people to be engaged and be as amicable as possible to the degree that they can. So, like doing any maneuvering might feel weird to them and then they might not necessarily stay engaged. I hear you, that's perfect. Yeah, very good. So what are some of the things that people address? So you mentioned child support. You mentioned properties, finances, custody, yeah, so what are the things?

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Yeah, I don't want to go into a lot of detail because it's not going to be that interesting for your podcast audience, but the four main topics are who are the kids going to be with when, and that gets called, in legal terms, custody and visitation.

Emma Viglucci:

Right.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

What are you going to do about supporting the kids, which is called child support? Is there going to be alimony, which is also called spousal support, also spousal maintenance, and if so, what are the conditions, how much, when? What ends spousal support? And what are you going to do about dividing property and debts? And that's something really important not to forget about. So those are the four main topics. And then there are smaller ones that kind of run through those.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

There's like insurance. It could be insurance on a car, which is kind of property related. It could be health insurance for the kids, which is kind of child support related. So there's insurance and there's taxes we have to deal with. Who's going to file, how? How are you going to file? You're going to keep stay married so you can file a joint return. Some people it's very advantageous to stay married for a little bit longer so they can file joint returns. Yep, um, and those are really the main issues, and sometimes people bring up random stuff that they want included. But sometimes they want a clause, a non-disparagement clause, where they say you know, each person agrees that they're not going to tell their friends about what happened between them and they're not going to publish anything. Sometimes somebody is a blogger who can get nasty, and so you know somebody might say I know you're going to.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

As soon as this is done, you're going to start blogging about me.

Emma Viglucci:

A YouTuber. Yeah, you have to agree not to do that, yeah, exactly yeah.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

So anything they bring in I'm happy to deal with, of course, but those are the main ones.

Emma Viglucci:

Okay, good, good. So what things do you find that trip people up? So you mentioned a few things already, like what creates impasses, where do people get, like they start butting heads and stuff. And then what would somebody an expert like yourself and who's a good mediator and stuff and then what would somebody an expert like yourself and who's a good mediator do to be able to resolve that and to help them through, navigate that and pass through?

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

That's actually a great question. I'm working now with a couple where the wife has a lot of family money and the husband is asking for a fair amount of spousal support. And the wife is furious. She feels that she has been supporting him for years and she doesn't want to support him anymore. And the husband feels he's entitled under law to what he's asking for and has in fact lowered what he's asking for just to kind of get to a deal. So there are emotional resentments and blockages of the process, like she could easily if she wanted to she could easily give him what he's asking for and be done with the process.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

I'm not saying that she should, but she could. It's a choice that she could make. Saying that she should, right, but she could, it's a choice that she could make right. And he has pointed out a couple of times that if he, if he gave, if she gave him what she's asking for, she would not ever feel the difference because of her finances. But she's saying he's not entitled and other things happened between them and so this emotional stuff gets in the way sometimes of them coming to a deal. And so with this couple I have been, like I said before, I've been doing shuttle mediation, talking to one and the other, and I've gotten them a lot closer. I haven't yet gotten them to a deal yet, but the distance between them is now about a fifth of what the distance was when I first started with them.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

So they're much closer, but they're both getting close to a resistance point where they're saying I'm not moving anymore, so I don't know if it'll resolve, but um, so that's one of the things I do is I try to because of the hot buttons between them. I've done shuttle and I've tried to get them closer and I have and I may. Another thing I may propose to them is that they each are coming in saying that their lawyers are telling them that my position is correct, right, and, and so what I may, yeah.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

So what I may do next is say can I have a mediation session with your lawyers? Because that way the lawyers can hear what each other is saying, instead of it being a telephone game, where the lawyer allegedly tells the client this and then the client tells me that, and then I tell it to the other person. If the lawyers get together, maybe I can cut through the remaining resistance.

Emma Viglucci:

Yeah, that's excellent, unless the other lawyers have taken it less than longer.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

We might find out.

Emma Viglucci:

Yeah.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Another idea I have with them is we can also go to. There are retired judges who sometimes give neutral opinions. So another thing I might do with them to help them, because neither of them wants to go to court. It would take years, it would eat up a ton of money half a million dollars probably in legal fees, and it's just. It would be horrible for them. They have kids. Kids are kind of older, but they're still kids, and so I might just encourage them to get a neutral opinion that would not be binding on them. They can still roll the dice and go to a judge, but at least it may be helpful to them to know what a judge who's dealt with matrimonials before would say about this. And one of them might well be find out. Oh my God, my lawyer is giving me bad information and I'm going to lose if I go to court. Maybe I want to settle.

Emma Viglucci:

Oh, how wonderful. I love that.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

I'm always trying for different ways to solve the problem and remove the impasse, depending on what's presented to me in a given situation.

Emma Viglucci:

Yeah, that's so interesting. So I had a couple that was very similar to the couple that you're describing. I actually thought of them as soon as you brought it. I'm like, oh, I wonder if that's them. Um, very similar. Like the woman had the money and the guys wants part of it and she's like that's not your money, like the whole thing.

Emma Viglucci:

So I understand that storyline and and I have another couple that that is more current, that when you say you said half a million dollars, sometimes that's nothing actually what some people are spending. It's like current that when you say you said half a million dollars, sometimes that's nothing actually what some people are spending. It's like wow, like you're throwing your money away, like can we figure something else out? Right, it's like almost silly. But yeah, people get stuck in that. And there's like an emotional component that I biased opinion. Let's address the emotional components so you could get unhooked, right? So maybe referring them to a therapist might be helpful. Yeah, just a little side note. So I love how you throw in very creative things into that. So what's the difference or what else would you say a good mediator, an experienced mediator, might bring to the table versus an inexperienced one or one less skilled?

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Well, one of the things I'm always thinking of is not to take sides, and that's very easy to say that, but even in the way I talk to them like I won't like this couple I was just talking about. I won't say your husband should get more. I will say your husband feels like he should get more. That's his position. So that's something that she has to deal with, and I'm always kind of stepping back and letting them do the talking. In a good mediation session, I talk very little and what I do is I'm always asking questions rather than making statements.

Emma Viglucci:

You know, sometimes talking is overrated. You know, just our presence in and of itself holds the space and they could actually do so much more than they think they're capable of doing, right. So that's beautiful, so good for you to tap into that and that you might just translate it a little bit, carry it over a little bit Right and kind of like clarify things and you're not getting in their way or getting a third position that makes it even more complicated.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Well, as a mediator, what I do is I'm really helping them have a conversation that they can't have without a neutral in the room because of what's happened between them or because of the high stakes of their conversation. They can't have that conversation without me, Right, and I'm there. I'm providing safety because there are guidelines and they know that I'm going to steer things in a constructive direction. Not necessarily that it's going to be something that they will like hearing, but I'm going to help keep them on point Right and steer them towards their goal.

Emma Viglucci:

Right, very, very nice.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

So I'm moderating their conversation. And keeping out some of the horrible stuff that sometimes comes in right, keep it to yourselves.

Emma Viglucci:

Very good. So, unless the skills mediator, what might be some of the mistakes that they might make?

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

they might argue with their clients. I've seen people do that. Somebody says you know they're not entitled to blah, blah, blah. And if somebody said that in a mediation session for a less skilled mediator, they might say I think you're wrong, you know, and the last thing you want, last thing I want to do as a mediator is argue with my client, right? So I might say it's interesting that you're saying that. Um, do you want to explain to the other person why you're saying that and where you, what your basis is for that?

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

excellent yeah, sometimes they want my opinion. If they do, I will always get buy-in from both of them first, like I might say you know, I have an idea as to how you might something you might do. Do you want to hear it now? I know that it's very likely that they're both going to say, yes, they're paying me for a service and they want my help. But if either of them says no, I just shut up and then I'm mediating the process. Then the other person will say why don't you want to hear what he has to say? We're paying him, he knows what he's doing, he's been great so far. Why can't we hear his idea? And so I wait. And the other person says, okay, fine, tell us your idea.

Emma Viglucci:

No-transcript advocating it.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

You know not, this is what you should do, Right? I might say I've worked with a number of couples who have done this and it seemed to be a good idea for them. And I always also throw in that you know your situation might be different, it might not be a good idea for you, but X, y, z seems to have worked for a lot of people. Is that something you would be open to? And again, I'm really saying it softly so that they don't feel like I have an agenda, because if one of them is going to like that idea, there's a good chance the other one's not going to like it.

Emma Viglucci:

I understand this. Yes, yes.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

This is black no, it's white. Two and two is four no, it's six. This is black no, it's white. This is two and two is four no, it's six.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

And so I'm not going, you know if I buy into one person, the other person feels like I'm on that person's side, and so I soft pedal it and I ask them if they're open to an idea, and I don't tell them what to do. I ask them what they want to do, and so, you know, I spend a fair amount of time mediating the process. Okay, you want this to happen. How do you feel about that happening? You want to get the house appraised. How do you feel about that? No, you don't want to get the house appraised. Would you like to explain why not? I would never say you should get the house appra.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Praise because, then this person feels I'm their enemy. Right, it's really between them and a lot of the time I feel like I'm a bullfighter, you know, like the bull is coming at me and I have my cape and I'm standing out of the way. No, okay, this is your argument. It is not my argument. I'm thinking all I'm always thinking I don't care what your settlement is.

Emma Viglucci:

Like this couple who I talked about a minute ago. If you know, if they settle where he gets all the money he's asking for. And she gives it all up, I'm fine with that.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

If they settle it where he gets nothing or very little, and he's okay with that and I'm fine with that. I don't care. I have my own opinion as to what I think is a good result or the fair result or what might happen in court, but that's just my opinion. Whatever settles for them, if they both understand it and they certainly will talk to lawyers, so they will have a legal basis and advice before they decide that's fine with me. So I'm not. I'm just interested in the sense of not caring as long as I run a good process. That's what I'm interested in Right.

Emma Viglucci:

You're not attached in the outcome, like the outcome is whatever they want the outcome to be. You're just helping facilitate an outcome so that they're both happy with what they landed in or where they both land in the least of all the evils, something that they could be okay with.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Exactly.

Emma Viglucci:

Yeah, very good. You know, I love the way you're describing all of that. You know, when you hear in passing and just regular conversations like, oh, let's mediate that, or you know, mediation maybe not necessarily in this context, but usually when we think of mediation or the middle ground, or you know, maybe negotiating or compromising, like those kinds of words capture what you're saying in the way that you're describing and it's like that is true mediation, so pretty, right, like just really staying out of the way and presenting. You know, okay, so what do you feel? What do you feel? What do you think? What do you think? What do you like? The why you feel like that, what do you think about that? Like offering nothing so that they could just you facilitate that's the best way to describe it right, so, so, so pretty, so they don't get in their own ways and you just keep the path open but one other thing I wanted to add.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

You asked before um, what does a good mediator do? Yes, a good mediator is not afraid of silence an inexperienced mediator. If there's 30 seconds of silence and here that's five seconds of silence, that already feels weird. But if there's 30, 30 seconds or a minute of silence, many mediators will jump in feeling like oh my God, what's happening? I let the silence do my work.

Emma Viglucci:

One of them is going to.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

One of them is going to say something, and then then they're having the conversation again.

Emma Viglucci:

And then I love that. Yes, One of them will will say something, and so so then they re-engage on their own, so they're taking more charge of their own process. That's lovely, but I'm also loving about that is that it's so gentle and it allows for people to think and process. So if we move too quick, it's like you can't wrap your mind around what's being said. Things come up, you can't even process them, you don't hear. You can't hear. You're having a reaction. All kinds of things happen when we are in an intense situation, and what you're suggesting is you allow people to be with themselves to sit to breathe through whatever's coming up for them, if necessary. Right, Like, think about the facts. What does it mean? Did I hear that? Right? Like, does that make sense to me? Like, just just, it's okay to sit and be. You know like, just take a second, it's okay, Nobody's going anywhere, it's all good.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

And some people are very quick thinkers about emotional things, and some people they reach an overload very quickly, a hundred percent, and they need time, and so being silent allows them to catch up.

Emma Viglucci:

Oh my gosh, yes, that is so beautifully said. So to the listeners. Please take stock of that, especially if you're a fast processor, because when you're getting patient with your partner and you're looking for an answer, the answer is going to be no. If you're a fast processor, because when you're getting patient with your partner and you're looking for an answer, the answer is going to be no. If you push, very well said, let them think they just need to kind of have a second right. Sometimes they don't know what they're feeling, they can't access anything and you keep coming at them. It makes it even worse, right? So this is definitely something that we practice in session as well through the therapy couples therapy. Like the person that processes very quickly, that's more expressive, that's more emotional. Take a chill pill, do yourself a favor and allow your partner to show up. If you're all over, your partner can't show up, and then you complain that they can't show up, right?

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

And we don't always take time to reflect, and sometimes good decision making is helped by a little bit of taking a breath and reflecting yeah, just getting in touch with, okay, what's happening inside me, what are my thoughts, what are my preferences?

Emma Viglucci:

right, this is actually along with my values. Did I lose sight of the things? Right, just take a bit beat. You know so good, I love it. So we cover what's a good mediator. We cover what an experienced one might do. Um, we cover some of the nice tricks that you have of your sleeves to to break impasses. What about when people get stuck in? Like a power, differential like, or discrepancy or what's the word that we're looking for? Imbalance, right? So any thoughts about that. How does that get managed? Like, what are some things that you suggest?

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

well I'm, I like to call those things out rather than having them be secret or you know, everybody knows, but nobody's calling it out into the room. So I might say, Bob, it seems like you wrote all the checks, you did all the accounts, and Louise, do you feel comfortable with this, the financial decisions we're making here? And I might make some suggestions, Like, for instance, she can talk to an accountant. There's a specialist called divorce financial planner. Sometimes we refer people to them because they focus on both before and after the divorce. How is somebody going to be okay? And so I would call that into the room. I always encourage people to get legal advice if I think it will be helpful, and sometimes I'm working with two people and one of them is an attorney. Whether they're a divorce attorney or not, one of them is an attorney and the other one has no idea.

Emma Viglucci:

Yeah or not.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

One of them is an attorney and the other one has no idea. Yeah, I'm. I work with people where one of them is um very volatile emotionally and the other is super calm, and that's a. That's a weird power imbalance too, and the one person's buttons are always being pushed and the other person is just a rock, and so that's a. That's a weird one to mediate, but I've had that a number of times and so I.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

I try to call it out into the room. I see that it looks like you're getting a little bit of upset. Am I right about that? Do you need a break? Do you need, do you want? Do you want to go get a glass of water? Do you want to come back in 15 minutes? So I'm trying to just deal with whatever isn't in front of me at the time, and there are hundreds of kinds of imbalances I guess I don't know.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

But I just try to keep the process working by making it an open, transparent process by, by making it an open, transparent process and so, whatever the imbalance is, if, if it's financial acumen, if, one person is really angry and the other person is scared, whatever it is, I try to address it in the room and once in a while I will tell them maybe we need to caucus, because I the imbalance needs to be addressed that way.

Emma Viglucci:

I prefer to do it with both of them, but sometimes there's just no way yeah, you know I'm curious about the imbalance of where one person is the rock and the other one is the emotional one. I see that a lot in my practice. That's pretty much for the course, that's pretty much what it is in the daily lineup of appointments. And so you said that you would address the emotionality of the person who's getting triggered and who's getting upset. Where, would you say, from your perspective, is the power imbalance in that? Who holds the power?

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

They hold the power.

Emma Viglucci:

They each hold power in different ways. I'm going to ask you a weird question, okay, so hopefully I won't throw you off, that's fine. Have you come across any weird requests or situations that you're just like? Seriously, this is what people are talking about or fighting about, or getting tripped up all over or anything like that. That's just kind of fun to share.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Oh, the grape story came to mind. I just I had. Okay, I'm going to try not to make it too specific, of course, yes, yes, these people came to me and early on in the mediation they talked about what they had done to each other in past lives in 16th century france oh, are you kidding me?

Emma Viglucci:

I love this.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding. The interesting thing is they both had that belief. That's so cool, and for me my attitude is it's not part of my experience, but I don't know that they're wrong and they seem to believe this, so I have to mediate this because this is what they believe.

Emma Viglucci:

Wow, I was not expecting this. This is like so funny. So quick little side note before you continue your story. That is so cool because it would have been more challenging to mediate, I assume, if person believed like you know, you were this in 16th century france, whatever. And the other person's like you're freaking nuts, right so, but they both believed it. How cool is that that then you have to mediate something? That's just so esoteric, right so, just so french, that's so cool yep, and they one of the things they fought about.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

I will never forget this. There was a white leather jacket and she said you, husband, have to keep the jacket. It has bad vibes. You have to keep it.

Emma Viglucci:

And the husband said no, you have to keep the jacket yes, it has bad vibes and you have to keep it wow, how interesting, and you couldn't get rid of it, so one of them had to be a juju yeah exactly how fun wow and it's like they.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

They couldn't get rid of it, they couldn't burn it, they couldn't throw it out. And people sometimes ask me well, could they have given it to you?

Emma Viglucci:

I didn't want that jacket. I might not believe in past life. I'm not keeping that stinking jacket.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

That's so funny so, yeah, you know, you take people where they are and that's what I do. So what happened?

Emma Viglucci:

what happened with a little jacket? Do you remember that one?

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

case did not did not end in mediation. Yeah, I, I think over 90 percent of my cases end in mediation, but that one did not. They were just there was too much going on. They also had a business together and they wanted to continue to operate the business together even after they divorced, and that made it really complicated and then they went their own separate ways. This is probably.

Emma Viglucci:

I probably saw them 15 years ago or something like that, so but I will always remember that one yeah, that's the fun one to keep in your pocket, that's so interesting. So whether well, in your pocket, that's so interesting. So whether well? And before I call the French so I don't want to I want to correct myself because some people might be insulted by that if that's part of their belief system. And I know that nowadays we're all expanding our levels of consciousness, we're all expanding our spirituality, our belief systems. We're getting a lot more, our belief systems are getting a lot larger in all the different ways, right, and so I've been embracing that myself. And so when I say that, it's definitely not a judgment for anybody who believes in all kinds of things that belong in this realm so it was not a judgment, it was just kind of like an observation.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

There are people who believe that we are a computer program, that we're not real people. So you know that, that there are people, we're in someone else's simulation. You know, I I don't know that that's not true. I I hope it's not true, but I don't know that that's not true so yeah yeah, anyway yeah, it's really funny.

Emma Viglucci:

This is a completely different topic now, but just for kicks, this is so fun. There's so many different belief systems nowadays and it's just fun to integrate them into like, okay, how does that fit into my whole scheme of things and how do I integrate that into how I serve people, if it serves them Right? So sometimes some of this stuff is too woo woo for some people and my clients might hear me say this all the time, like it's too woo-woo, ignore me, right? So I just kind of preface it and so I just share whatever makes sense to you, whatever comes to me to share, whatever makes sense for the moment, and they could always chuck it in the bucket.

Emma Viglucci:

That doesn't make sense and so, yeah, so just bringing in anything that just serves the conversation and the process, anything that just serves the conversation and the process, and if it doesn't serve, let us know. Let me know if you're my client and right, not everything's going to serve, and that's okay too. So it's a collaboration and at the end of the day, we all co-create in that moment and that experience. We are here to serve them. So let us know how we can serve you best and we'll do the best that we can right, exactly.

Emma Viglucci:

Yeah, very so. Let us know how we can serve you best and we'll do the best that we can right exactly. Yeah, very good, lovely. So this leads me to possibly our last question together, which is what would be the description of a highly successful mediation process at the end of the day, one that you're like, ooh, beau, on top of that one?

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Well, as I said before, where they come in, I ask them what they'd like to talk about and they have a conversation I'm gently guiding them, but saying very little and they're having a back and forth and one person says well, I don't want to do this. I know you want me to do that, but I don't want to do that.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

But I will do this and the other person says well, if you do that then I will do this other thing for you, or I'll, since you're willing to give on that you know and they're having a conversation again that I don't think that they would be able to have easily without the structure of the mediation process, and we move them forward and I'm gently, of course, I'm taking notes so that nothing gets forgotten or left, and then at the end of the process, at the end of that session or at the end of the process, they're in agreement and I'm clear to with them that I um, once mediation is complete, I will get rid of all my notes and we'll. We'll work and I keep the notes, but they're free to change their minds two, three, four, five times until we have a deal yeah, yeah, 100%.

Emma Viglucci:

Very good, thank you for that. Cool. So that's so pretty. So you said so we have a deal. And you said after the first session or after several meetings. So how long does the process usually take? The number of sessions and length of time? So I don't know if that clarification Sure.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

I usually meet with people from an hour to an hour and a half long. These days I'm doing all my sessions on Zoom, and so it's harder for people to focus as long on Zoom as it used to be for them to be in the same room together. So it feels like an hour and a half is a good stopping point. I mean, if we're in the middle of something and we want to go an extra five minutes just to figure that out, of course I'll do that.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Yeah, usually my mediations are quick. I hear mediators say that their usual mediations are 10 hours, 12 hours. My mediations are like four to six hours. I'm kind of a cut to the chase kind of guy and I kind of help them figure out what they're not talking about and what they are talking about Excellent. I feel like I'm giving them good value by doing that and they're going to be happy clients.

Emma Viglucci:

Lovely, very nice. And so four to six sessions over a period of time, or six hours, not four, so like three, three sessions, maybe four sessions right and over how long well, it depends on their situations.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

I'm going to say we've answered a lot of your questions, because everybody's different. Sometimes people need downtime between sessions, sometimes, like, we're about to hit summer now and one person or the other will be traveling a lot, so it might be a month before we meet again.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Right, right On the other hand, sometimes there's a hot issue like their house is being foreclosed on and we need to meet three times this week to work out a settlement and a short sale or whatever. So it's really up to them. Sometimes they need to gather some information, Like if they need to get documents and they have kids and they can't do it at night and they have a job it takes longer.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

So it's really up to them how frequently we meet, but it's it's common for for me to meet with people once every week or once every other week so like three months about yeah, that's probably on the long side. Yeah, probably. I would say a month to two months. Usually most of my mediations are concluded.

Emma Viglucci:

Amazing. And then I'll draft an agreement.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

I'll draft an agreement, I'll send it to them and we'll go through it by a three-way call or a Zoom so they understand it. And then, if they're ready to sign, they can sign. If not, we can discuss it more. They can go to attorneys and have the attorneys advise them. Is this a good deal or not?

Emma Viglucci:

Right, right. And now you've said go to attorneys a few times during this call and just for clarification for the audience, you are an attorney as well, so you're knowledgeable on the law. You're just saying their own attorneys.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Right, I will give them legal information, but I can't give them legal advice. So I can tell them, for instance, what is the expected amount of child support. If people are making this amount and they have two kids, I can tell them. That's an information question.

Emma Viglucci:

Gotcha, gotcha.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

If one of them wants more or wants to pay less, I can't advise them whether they should accept that deal or not. That's advice, not information. That might go into. Well, what else are they doing? They want to the. This person wants to pay less, but they're giving you the house, including five hundred thousand dollars in equity, for free as part of the deal. Okay, that's you know. That's something you need advice about and I won't. I won't give that advice because it's really it's not an information question gotcha interesting right.

Emma Viglucci:

So you just clarify all the information and they could take that and realize okay, how do I use that to best suit me and make choices? Very nice, okay, lovely, thank you for that distinction. That's great, thank you all right my love, any other last minute thoughts that you want to share with the audience, any takeaways, any parting words, um, I just wanted to say that.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Um, I the way I do mediation is very easy to try it. I charge on a session by session basis, so you don't have money tied into the process, and I like doing it that way because it lets people try it out, it lets people, it keeps me on my toes and people know that I'm on my toes because if I do something wrong they're not going to come back.

Emma Viglucci:

You're working for it Exactly and I'm proving myself session by session.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

And after a session, after two sessions. People trust me and they know who I am. They know I'm, I'm legitimate and I most of the time.

Emma Viglucci:

I finish the case excellent good, yeah, amazing, I like being.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

I like having skin in the game, just like my clients have skin in the game, you know yes, lovely, very, very nice, cool.

Emma Viglucci:

so the last thought as to like, how should the people be when they go through a divorce? How do they show up with their best self, like, what's the advice? That's like this is how you ensure, to the best that you can, that you will have a better process, like you know, like that, those kinds of words.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

I wouldn't really advise them about that. They come in and I will help them figure out how to be as we go ahead and they'll see what works and what doesn't and you know, I'll help them with their process and get them to a result.

Emma Viglucci:

Answer like a true mediator. I love it. Terrific. Very, very nice, glenn. Excellent. So now I know you have an offer for people who want to try you out. You usually your your. I think you said consultation is already free, but then you, I always offer I always offer a free consultation for um anybody who's thinking about working with me.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

But if anybody um after seeing this, um hearing this podcast or seeing um this recording comes to me from that, I will give them the second hour of my services entirely free. That's so that people are just using me to get free services. But if they're serious about using me their second hour, will be free.

Emma Viglucci:

Terrific, that's so generous. Thank you my pleasure. So I so appreciate you sharing your time with me. Your wisdom, your process is so, so lovely, as I witnessed I had, like I said earlier, the honor of witnessing myself, so yay, and the way that you described it totally captured all of that. So, so, so beautiful. So again, thank you so much for being here today with me and sharing time with me.

Glenn Dornfeld, Esq.:

Thank you for sharing your time with me and thank you for this opportunity, and it was good to get to know you better, so I appreciate that too.

Emma Viglucci:

You're most welcome, and likewise into the audience. I will see you at the next one. Bye.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Emma K Viglucci, LMFT

Host