About Men: Don't Let Anger Issues and Toxicity Affect Your Holidays w/ Richard Heller (Ep.5)

Do your holiday plans and activities get derailed? Have you ever wondered about the impact of the feminist movement on the romantic relationship and on men? 

I have, a lot, as a part of the work I do with couples… Because we not only have all the emotional and psychological aspects at play in our relationship dynamics, but we have all sorts of other influences affecting how we get along… And gender and our own individual energies play a huge role in how we experience the relationship and each other. 

The key is always to bring awareness to all we do and to all our contexts, especially in the relationship with our life Partner. For bringing more awareness, and higher levels of consciousness, to our interactions helps us more easily understand each other and connect more deeply. 

In today’s episode, we have a very special guest, Richard Heller, and we discuss the masculine experience in relationship and what this means for them, for the feminine, and the relationship as a whole. We tried our best to be as inclusive as possible in our conversation and ask that you tailor the pronouns and other relevant gender aspects to fit your situation and relationship constitution. The intention is to address and help navigate the differences between partners, and not necessarily the social constructs around gender,  to inspire successful relationships.  

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🌟ABOUT OUR GUEST:

Rich Heller, MSW, is a trained mediator and parent coordinator, Professional Certified Coach, and an ELI Master Practitioner.  He helps parents transform a negative relationship with conflict into one in which they resolve differences creatively and build their relationship. He helps them learn the tools and techniques needed to increase joy and resilience for themselves and their children. He works with individuals and couples married and divorced. You can find him as www.RichInRelationship.com. 

Gift from Rich:

~ Unbreakable Husband Program

Find him here: 

Facebook | LinkedIn | Instagram | TikTok | Pinterest

 
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More about the podcast on our Podcast Page.

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DISCLAIMER: This content is meant to support your Journey and not as a replacement for professional assistance. Additionally, the ideas and resources provides by our guests are their ideas and recommendations alone and not necessarily a reflection of the host’s.

Transcript

Emma: 0:31

Hello lovelies, welcome to another episode I am so excited for. Today we have a very special guest and his name is Richard Heller. We have a wonderful conversation about men in relationship and how they show up sometimes might be considered toxic and not helpful for creating a successful relationship. Some of the takeaways were that some of that interaction might be misinterpreted and how different partners might experience a relationship differently. Listen to the conversation. There are some great takeaways for how to communicate better if you are the communicator, the sender of the message, and how to receive that better if you're the partner, so that you can line up, communicate better, connect more and collaborate in a way that serves you. Perfect conversation for the holidays, as there are a lot of activities and festivities going on and you might need this to stay connected and have a wonderful holiday season. Stay tuned, you're in for a treat.

Emma: 1:39

We are here today with an amazing guest, my good friend, rich Heller. I'm going to read his bio and then we'll say hello to Rich. I am so excited to bring him to this conversation today. You're in for a good treat. Stay tuned. Here we go. Rich helps parents transform a negative relationship with conflict into one in which they resolve differences creatively and build their relationship. He helps them learn the tools and techniques needed to increase joy and resilience for themselves and their children. He works with individuals and couples, married and divorced, and no stranger to conflict, Rich grew up in New York City, is a child of divorce, has been divorced and has successfully remarried. Okay, so Rich, I know that we're going to have a rich conversation.

Rich: 2:28

We're going to be very rich in a relationship today.

Emma: 2:30

Yes, we are. I love it. I love that you have that tagline, all right. So the topic which is love in relationship, but maybe not so loving sometimes, and how we bring toxicity or create toxicity in our relationship which doesn't really serve us with the ultimate goal of love, right, and sometimes we don't even know that we'll be in toxic. We might recognize it in our partner, but we don't recognize it in ourselves, and so I have this wonderful conversation with you today about how to identify that. Whose fault is it- partners love to do that right?

Rich: 3:06

It's my fault. Right, we're going to talk about that.

Emma: 3:11

Most people don't say it's my fault, so we're going to definitely play with that.

Rich: 3:14

This is a secret to a happy marriage. It's my fault.

Emma: 3:18

It should be like that in my opinion, but that's not popular right.

Rich: 3:23

Well, it's kind of a joke and it's kind of not. And how do I really frame that? I think, because men are so goal-oriented and very often the goal is, I want to be right, it's not a bad thing for us to learn to say and then, maybe it's not my fault, maybe a better way to put it would be my fault, is kind of a joke. I'm responsible, right. If it's not working, I'm responsible. If it is working, yeah, I might have a part in it, but I, honestly, nine times out of 10, I will actually give my wife more credit because she is far more skilled at relationships than I am. Well, that's nice, that's very generous.

Emma: 4:07

A lot of people are not like that.

Rich: 4:08

Well, I think because women are far more skilled at relationships, and we're going to talk about that some more.

Emma: 4:15

Yeah, totally, exactly. So I know you specialize in working with men, even though we said here that you work with individuals couples, married and divorced but your cup of tea nowadays is men. Tell us a little bit more about that, if I'm capturing that right.

Rich: 4:32

You know, I work as a parent what's called a parent coordinator. So I work with couples in the court system as a parent coordinator because I'm a trained mediator. And, as you know, I also work with couples who come to me because they're trying to figure out how to stop having a toxic exchange and start having a positive exchange. And once they have a positive exchange, once they can talk about differences without being triggered and explosive, without being toxic, which is what we're going to talk about today then they can do the real work with a therapist like yourself.

Rich: 5:03

The whole thing with men that kind of came sideways at me. They just started reaching out to me and at first I was like what is this? I work with people who are getting divorced. I work with people who want to learn how to have a positive dynamic. But they kept coming, and so last year I spent three months really learning, studying, digging deep, looking at my own marriage and working with these guys, and so I have a whole program that's focused around these guys who think that they come to me like innocent victims. But we all know that there are no innocent victims when it comes to marriage.

Emma: 5:46

You know, I love how you brought that up, because before we started recording you mentioned how they come the feeling that they have in its victim slash also like very accountable or very like at a loss. They're interested in creating change, right? So what is it that you call it? They want to do what?

Rich: 6:07

Well, they want to save their marriage. But we, the program's called the Unbreakable Husband Program because it's kind of it's kind of got like a masculine appeal and but they, many of them, feel broken. They call me and they feel broken. They've done everything they think they're supposed to do to save the marriage and the more they do those things, the worse it gets that is awesome.

Emma: 6:33

So if you go there and tell us some of the things that they do that they think are helpful, that actually works against them.

Rich: 6:43

Yeah, for sure, there's a huge list, but it boils down to two things, you know. The first is that, men, there's a difference in the way men's brains and women's brains are wired Right. So the study is going back 20, 30 years. I don't know why we don't talk about them today. It's like it's not out there in public, but the research was done.

Emma: 7:05

Oh, we know yeah.

Rich: 7:07

And we can talk about that more, but on a basic level, what it means is that guys are super goal oriented. Like this is not going to be a big surprise to any woman who's listening to this show. Guys are super oriented and when they see a problem, what do they want to do? They want to fix it. They want to fix it without thinking about what that fix is going to do to anyone or anyone or anything around them. They're not where we men are generally not very I'm going to call it ecological in our thinking, always think about the repercussions and reverberations. And so when we see there's a problem in the marriage, we start taking very focused actions that don't always take into consideration all the players or even necessarily the needs, and so that's the central problem. And then there's their reaction when that doesn't work, which is nine times out of 10, frustration and anger, and then blame.

Emma: 7:58

Yes, and that's one of the main complaints that women or the feminine energy partner would say, which is they don't listen to me, they don't listen to my feelings, they don't accept me, they just want to fix it, right. I mean, this is an old thing that we hear all the times about relationships they just want to fix things right, and when women or that energy does not allow the fixing to happen, it has an effect on the man too, or the masculine energy, right? And so we could talk about that too, the impact of that, and so when the man is operating from that energy and the impact is the other person doesn't feel heard or understood, or it has a negative impact on them, that's where all this stuff starts to happen, right? So you wanted to say more about that, I think, right.

Rich: 8:45

Yeah, well, actually, first, I just want to acknowledge the way you're taking that from a man woman dynamic to male, male and female energy dynamic, and I'm often very conflicted about how to talk about this, because for me it's about the way the brain is wired, and so let me just throw this in there, all right. It's about brains that develop at bodies high in estrogen and how brains develop in bodies that are higher in testosterone, and there are guys who have higher levels of estrogen and lower levels of testosterone. There are women who have higher levels of testosterone and lower levels of estrogen. So I think it's very fair to say this is not strictly what organ were you born with. Exactly, you know. So if I have a tendency to talk in terms of men and women and you're in a same-sex marriage and one of you is leaning more into being goal-oriented and the other is leaning more into being more ecological, and just think, just translate what I'm saying into those terms.

Emma: 9:47

Very good, I love that. So here we have the masculine-slay-man thing going, and that's the person that you generally work with, usually men. They want to fix things, they want to be helpful, they want to fix their marriage, but their approach doesn't necessarily work. They have some kind of a reaction.

Rich: 10:07

You know, the one that I see the most of is kind of the nice guy approach, and that's where men, in an effort to not be toxic you know, there's that whole idea of toxic masculinity out there not be very aggressive, and I am what I am, and that stuff they're bending over backwards to do. Basically they're replaying what worked when they were in the in love stage, except they're not in the in love stage. So they're just doing everything they can to please their wife, but it's not what she wants. You know, that's not what she wants at this phase. In the in love phase, that worked great, but in this phase of life, when there's children involved, she wants more than that. And so they're trying so hard and they're being really nice, and part of the reason why it's not working is underneath it.

Rich: 10:56

We could handle this one phase at a time, one's area at a time. Underneath it is this growing frustration for the guy, and the guy is like compartmentalizing it and being nice and being nice. But you see, women, brains that evolve in bodies that are high in estrogen are far more aware of micro expressions in body language than brains that evolve in bodies full of testosterone. And so what those nice guys don't know quote nice guys don't know is the women are sensing or those are sensing those emotions and so matter how nice they are on the surface, they're sensing that underneath it there's something else happening, you know, and and it's very hard to feel safe or receive that nice guy stuff, it's hard to trust it when you sense that underneath it is that frustration, when you sense is there's a drive that then nice guy thing. It isn't that authentic. Oh baby, I love you so much I give my life for you. Experience of in love it feels like what a manipulation.

Emma: 11:54

Excellent, very good, yeah. And it's interesting that we started with the nice guy syndrome because a lot of times when I'm working with couples that might be there from in, if I talk to the guy by themselves, they might show up that way like they're trying everything, they're super nice, right, and like nothing's working. And then when they're together or when I meet with the woman very different story and it doesn't look. Look like the very like the nice guy, yeah.

Emma: 12:25

And so that's why the toxicity thing might come in, and so there's a different. There was a disconnect and incongruity on their experiences. So, do you want to jump on that yeah?

Rich: 12:38

Well, there's all kinds of disconnects and incongruities. You know, I was listening to Bernadette Brown talk about men in shame and she says that shame shows up for men in two ways. They're either raging or they're emotionally shut down. And I think for a lot of these nice guys, when that stops working, they slip into one of these two things. You know, they're either just very shut down and yeah, I'm sure we've both worked with guys who are like that, who are, who are very emotionally in control, emotionally locked down. But again, you know people, their wives, can sense what's going on underneath it. Even though the facade seems, seems very controlled and presentable from a social point of view, their partner can sense what's happening underneath. And then, of course, the raging guys. Well, you know that that's what we define as toxic masculinity today, those guys who are just all over the place, very intense, who say whatever comes to their mind. You know who are, who are, who don't have any concern about equality.

Emma: 13:47

You know, what's really interesting with that is that those guys show up aggressive. Their approach is so intense and so heightened. They don't realize how scary that is for the other partner to receive if they are the softer partner. And even if they're not the softer partner, I'm just saying that the other side needs to be a little flower that's going to wilt if you raise your voice, but usually you know you're not going to be able to hear the other side of the story. It's just a little bit of a surprise, but usually when that intensity is unleashed it feels like a physical threat to the receiving partner. And again, if we're just going to keep the conversation simple, let's just refer to men and women, and people could translate this for themselves. When guys are doing that, they don't realize how scary it is for the woman to be in the receiving end of that, where they don't know if they're going to get hit or pushed or whatever it is, and they know that they're not going to hit or they're not going to do anything.

Emma: 14:54

But how does the woman know?

Rich: 14:56

I think the fact is that kind of rage is very progressive also. I mean, it starts out as emotional abuse, you know, which might just be yelling, not really intense yelling, it just might be kind of regular yelling that maybe you grew up in a family where people just yelled and if you, with those guys who have the shame, that will escalate to yelling with gestures and then yelling with gestures will get really, really loud and then eventually they might even push their wife and each step, every baby step, into that world of rage. You know it leads eventually to physical violence and something, but it's all abuse. The point is it's all abuse and it's all toxic. And it's kind of an interesting question you know what makes that toxic? Versus if their wives started yelling at them, which happens in a lot of cultures, why isn't that toxic?

Emma: 15:59

Well, I don't know that I would say that it's not toxic. Maybe it's not the popular definition out there of toxicity and what happens in a relationship. I mean I would call that abusive and in-taxic too. Right, like if you do that or if I do that, not good, right. But yeah, culturally I know there was a bias against men doing it.

Emma: 16:17

I love how this conversation is going in terms of defining toxicity and how you're calling the whole thing emotional abuse. And the moment we start raising our voice, from the moment that we start name calling or character assassination or just picking other person's faults and getting aggressive and in your face and maybe even physical, we're like we're holding the door closed or we're black in the door, we're pushing, we're grabbing. I mean it escalates, right. So it could get really dangerous potentially. And this is not a conversation about domestic violence and if guys, if anybody's in trouble with that, this is not the conversation for you. We don't want you to stay in something dangerous. Get help, different help. You can reach out to us if you have questions on how to do that. But the conversation is yeah, we don't want that.

Rich: 17:02

What's the toxicity that builds up to that? Domestic violence? And there's a lot of toxicity in relationships that isn't considered domestic violence, that's right, but there is an emotionally violent component to it. There's this concept of toxic masculinity that's out there, right, and that's kind of the media icon for toxicity, and it's these guys who are I don't play by the rules the government's. You know it's a kind of there's a lot of bluster and a lot of intensity and it's basically defined as anything that's an attack on women. And then there's something called toxic femininity, which is similarly defined. Anything that's an attack on women, right, and so there's, but there's no toxicity when it as defined to men and you know we were talking before the show started. That I think it's what it's come out of is.

Rich: 17:58

You know we've had this for hundreds of years, thousands of years really. You know there's been this battle of this uneven society that's run by who? White men, for the most part, right, that's changing. There's other kinds of men too. I mean, you know one of the last groups in this country to get the vote were women. So of course, you know we're defining toxicity in that context, because we're recognizing that people are equal, that everyone is. It's a level playing field. And then the bigger question is you know, if men aren't the head of the household and the decider, you know the future of the world and all those things that we've been selling ourselves as for for thousands of years? What are we?

Emma: 18:48

Wow. So there was so much good stuff in there and we could talk about gender equality, femininity, masculinity and power and all these things.

Rich: 18:59

There's a lot of podcasts in that.

Emma: 19:02

We could have multiple episodes on all of this. If women are trying to own their equality and gain that respect and that level of power to be equal in the way to do that maybe hasn't been done well over the past few decades.

Rich: 19:24

I think it's been, I think it's been done terrifically well, but the context has changed, so it's now something new needs to emerge.

Emma: 19:32

So what we're saying is that if there was any inequality and the world was run by by men primarily white men and eventually women are like wait a second, and they start elevating.

Emma: 19:45

In that elevation we've done a fabulous job of getting elevated, but it created a disconnect between men and women in their relationship, right? So that's what I'm trying to get to. And so, yes, we are amazing, but in owning that, it dislodged, men and men haven't been able to regroup in a proper way. So this large from the high and mighty and controlling, but hopefully into a better position, which we're still trying to figure out, right? And that's what we're seeing in the primary romantic relationship, where that power is weird and that's where a lot of the conflict is happening between men and women, aside from the fact that we have very different brains, very different everything and very different physical makeup, the process, information and everything else that creates all this disconnects, right? And then we desist back to the missing misinterpretation of all those interactions and whether toxicity builds. So anything about how to mitigate that discrepancy so that we could all be empowered and not do it in any funky way. Where we're, at the end of the day, we're still not united.

Rich: 20:59

How to mitigate the discrepancy. I think that, as we acknowledge that men and women are equally empowered, but in different ways, right, and we're wired differently, right there. The beauty of that is that we get to recognize that Women bring solutions to the table that men haven't allowed. When you think about men as being very goal-oriented and linear and not ecologically minded, then you look at the state of the planet, the relationship we have with the planet. It's like it kind of makes sense that the polar taps are melting and the sea is rising. Women bring in the opportunity to rebalance that right.

Rich: 21:47

As we allow women to lead in their strengths I got a dog invading me as we allow women to lead in their strengths and allow them to bring that strength of being ecologically or environmentally minded I was talking about that first socially, but you can apply that to the planet. Then there's an opportunity to really start to look at things. I think it's really interesting. The rise of the environmental movement came at the same time as the women's movement, as women became more empowered. There's no accident in that.

Emma: 22:20

Beautiful.

Rich: 22:22

The question then is if you're a man, what is your role now? If it isn't to be father-nose best or whatever ancient television show you want to reference, the question is what does it mean? I think the secret is, again, just as we're seeing that women are starting to really move into their strength and their power, it's really all right. Well, where is the strength and power of men?

Emma: 22:56

Right. Well, so I think that men are still very powerful into this society. I think that women are owning their power more. I think I want to bring it more to the conversation of the relationship. That's where this empowerment is happening and where the unbalancing has been settled down in a way that allows for that equality. As much as we would wish, people or partners are operating from yeah, we're equals, supposedly right, they're operating from. We're equals, but there's a power struggle.

Rich: 23:36

Always.

Emma: 23:37

Right, that's where the thing is happening, that's where the toxicity is getting built in and that's where the miscommunication is happening and the fighting and then not getting each other's knees met and the misalignment.

Rich: 23:48

So anything about that power struggle, I think that's what's triggering the toxicity, and I think, as women are stepping into their power, I think there's actually a huge relief for men to be equal. It's actually a huge relief to be equal. I think a lot of men think that they are completely responsible for everything, and part of why they're so overreactive is that they feel like that how can you be responsible for everything? They can barely manage what's going on between their own ears. For God's sake. Come on, let's be real. And so there's a huge opportunity here for guys to just go. Thank God, I have a partner. Nothing of a partner has strengths that I don't. How cool is that? Instead of why can't she see it my way? There's a huge opportunity just in that. That's like. The first part is to relax back into it, into that position of what does it mean to be a partner? What does it mean to be an equal?

Emma: 24:47

Yes, you're speaking. I'm hearing all these different voices of all my clients and all the different ways that all this stuff plays out, and just so much we could go in any direction with all of this. How do we define a man? And then, what does it mean to be equal? So there's so much right, so go right ahead.

Rich: 25:05

So if you're a man and you're relaxing into that stance of, oh wow, I don't have to be responsible for all the results because I have a partner, then you're asking yourself so who am I then? At the baseline in a relationship, what men bring to the table is they're natural protectors. I don't mean that they're all Chuck Norris I was going to say Bruce Lee but I don't mean that they're all Chuck Norris. I don't mean that all men are fighters, are physical fighters, but men have it have as part of their wiring. They want to make it safe, as safe in any way they can.

Rich: 25:47

Well, they knew that my job is to make sure that everything is as safe for my family as possible. So I've worked with men who, for them, that shows up as I really need to monitor my kid's phone because I need to know, at 12 years old, who she's interacting with. And today, thanks to what's going on with Israel and Hamas, there are dads who are removing apps from their children's home because they don't want them to see people being killed, because this stuff is being put out through the internet. And that's legit. That's legit protection, so that one role is protector.

Emma: 26:24

Yes, so definitely the role of protector is huge in something that doesn't get appreciated or recognized or utilized, sometimes in relationships. So when the guys are doing that kind of stuff, sometimes the women mock it or they think it's silly or why are you being paranoid, like that kind of stuff, right? So they don't recognize the value, that there was a purpose there. And that's what the guy needs. The guy needs to have the purpose. They need to be the fixer, they need to be the protector.

Rich: 26:59

He has a natural instinct in that direction. And the question is how, now that we're equal, now that society, at least here in the United States, isn't quite as aggressive as it used to be, how do you harness that instinct and way that's healthy for the family? That's probably the best way to put it. Not that women can't protect, not that women aren't aware of these things. By the way, like I know some fierce women, you know Fears and if you threaten that child, a mother will step in for that child like no one else. So I want to be really clear. I'm not saying that men are unique in this, but I am saying that they have a natural instinct in this area and we want to harness it. Can I tell you a story to illustrate this? Sure, you're gonna love this one.

Emma: 27:38

Tell me.

Rich: 27:39

I have a couple I'm working with where the mom is South African, the father is African American, divorced, one child between them. He is so angry with her, so angry with her. She is doing her best. She feels like a single parent, got her kid enrolled in a school. His beef with her is that she is whitewashing her child, not allowing her child to be in touch with her cultural roots.

Rich: 28:09

And finally this opportunity came up for them to work together, where she harnessed his strengths and he willingly allowed her to, when the child, three times or four times, was openly discriminated against by the other kids. First these kids said I think the kids said you can't play with us because you're too fat. And the next time they said you can't play with us because you don't have any siblings. And the next time they said you can't yeah, kids can be nasty. And the next time they said you can't play with us because your hair is different, she's got dreadlocks or not dreadlocks, she's got braids, weaves, and the mom is going to the school and complaining, going to the school and complaining, going to the school and complaining, and they're saying oh, you know, kids are just nasty.

Rich: 28:53

Finally, she turned to this guy who is so mad at her and said I don't know what to do. And he says this is what's going on. And he was like what? And he, by the way, he's an educator, right, love it, he's a dean in a satellite school. And he stepped in and he was ferocious. He sat the principal down and said you and I know what the proper response is to this and I can't believe you're not doing anything about it. How is it that we're finding this out to our child? How is it that the mother of the child who said that to my daughter hasn't been alerted? I'm going to bring in the superintendent, right, and he was amazing. He was amazing, right. This is like kind of a great example of how, when, even in this divorce couple that's in high conflict, when she realized this is his strength, this is what he knows about, he went in and advocated for her in a way that she just couldn't. And the results are yet to be seen, but already things are changing.

Emma: 29:53

Very, very nice. Yes, so to that point when we do allow us to lean into what we're best at, as opposed to trying to be at all right. So if these are my characteristics, these are my strengths, I don't have to try to do all of these things. Also, If you're much better at that, just use your strengths and use my strengths and create a much bigger, better whole.

Rich: 30:15

And what's really interesting is there was something about his masculine anger that made them jump. That was totally different than her feminine anger and she was pissed off. Let me tell you, and rightfully, rightfully so that child was being abused, you know, and they would not listen to her. But when he went in with his degree and his intense I am not going away until you fix this vibe, all of a sudden things started to change.

Emma: 30:41

Well see, that's a different conversation. That pisses me off now.

Rich: 30:44

Yeah, well now we're talking about not only men and women we're talking about. We're talking about class and race.

Emma: 30:48

Oh, there's all kinds of things in there, so yeah.

Rich: 30:50

Yeah.

Emma: 30:51

Thank you for that example. Get me riled up.

Rich: 30:55

But I was so proud of them both.

Emma: 30:57

That's so lovely.

Rich: 30:58

They figured that out without me. I was like, oh, this is so cool.

Emma: 31:01

That is really cool yeah.

Rich: 31:03

On the other side, I would say that it's also a role of men and we don't do this very well. It's to serve the family. You know right, when we men like to think, what we used to think is I'm the head of the household, I'm the leader, I'm charging forward for everyone. But real leaders, we're finding out, serve the people they represent. Real leaders, you know, are aware of the needs of the people they represent. Men may not be as good at figuring out what those needs are, and that's the beauty of the partnership. You know you can turn to your partner and say, hey, I'm not as good at this as you are. You know, like how can I help better? Like I just I don't understand our daughter, I don't understand her son. Help me to understand them, help me to understand how I can be a better dad or a better, you know, a better male oriented partner. You know, whatever however you want to frame that, you know that's the beauty of partnership.

Emma: 32:02

That's so nicely said, exactly right. So if we know that, okay, these are your strengths, you could fix things you're protecting. You come up with solutions that might be very different than mine, but you know. And then this is what I have to offer, and of course I'm saying you the man and me being the woman. So what is the conversation? How do we complement each other? How do we utilize both sides of that in a way that serves the whole family? So if the role of protector is now in the form of not bringing out the fist, but rather serving the family, what would that look like nowadays, in the modern society?

Rich: 32:38

Yeah, it's a great question and I think the example that I gave really sheds light on it. You know, I think when men step into the protector role from their predisposition or their ideas that were programmed into them, we're always on shaky ground because, let's get real, you know, most men today were raised in biased families, maybe not misogynistic on the surface, but the bias was always present, and so we're all a little crooked on this. And so what was really cool about the example that I gave you is, you know, she told she, laid out the landscape for him and she and let him know this is who you need to talk to, and let him know what had been happening and framed it for him and then allowed him to step in in his strength and in that environment, in a bureaucratic environment, that kind of strength and anger might even be appropriate, like bureaucrats will jump. It's about the squeaky wheel in bureaucracy. This is a public school, not a private school. Yeah, in a private school it's a whole different set of concerns.

Emma: 33:46

So many social cultural things in this conversation is just mind-boggling.

Rich: 33:52

So I think it's really important for partners to have conversations about this, you know? Hey, all right, what does it mean for me to? I think what it means for me to protect you is this what do you think, you know? Am I sure something personal? The one conversation my wife and I have had about this that I was 100% right on was this Of course you had to be right this example, yeah absolutely.

Rich: 34:17

This is the one time I was 100% right. She was like there was no argument or pushback. We both grew up in New York City. We both grew up in New York City before Giuliani, which means it was a war zone. She was on the subway with guys trying to sexually abuse her as a kid. I mean, we grew up and it was not good. I was growing up with people trying to shake me down all the time and sexual abuse me too. By the way, that's the truth. That will happen to everybody. I've got 38 years of martial arts experience. I've taught self-defense. I've taught kids and adults martial arts.

Rich: 34:51

Right, nice, I said to her if we're ever walking down the street and something not right is coming towards us, something that looks threatening, you will please take our child and go to the other street and do whatever. Go outside the street. You need to call for help. You call for help, but you will allow me to deal with this. I have the training and I have the background and you are a liability in that situation because you don't right. And she's like okay, she didn't say to me what if that happens? Because she knows from the way we grew up, it happens. She didn't say to me why you? Because she knows 38 years of training right. There was a complete understanding of strengths there and I think for men it's really important. Probably for women too, given the scenario. Please help me understand. Those are probably the best, the three most important words you can have in a partnership. Please help me to understand. I'm a blank slate. Help me understand.

Emma: 35:50

I love that. Yes, so we have couples, partners, who are power struggling, who are pressing information differently, who have all this biology that's different, social, cultural things, experiences that are different, and they're trying to have a successful relationship. They want to make sure that they support each other. They want to be nice, supposedly. I think that really. They do.

Rich: 36:25

I know that they do we often don't see that because they're not coming to you or me with that on the surface, but I think they're coming to you because they really do want that.

Emma: 36:34

That's right. They might just not be great at communicating it or expressing it, Otherwise they wouldn't be here. Now we have this situation where they want to create a successful relationship. They want to understand each other better, but they're having a very hard time and they're calling everything toxicity and you don't get me and you suck and you don't care. They're in this place where they're not getting along. They are struggling, their power is struggling and all the discrepancies are showing up. What are they doing?

Rich: 37:06

We select the partner who is going to help us to heal the gaping wounds that we enter into the relationship with.

Emma: 37:13

Yes.

Rich: 37:14

Or another way we would put it is even though the studies show that we tend to sort of like people who are 60 or 70% similar to us, the 30% difference is they have a strength that we want.

Emma: 37:29

Wow, that's an interesting and beautiful way of saying all of that. Usually the way that I frame that is consciously we are similar in all these different ways, but unconsciously we have the opposite stuff and that's where the attraction is happening. We're not owning our strength, so we have all that difference that we're not usually using as best as we can. So perfect, very good.

Rich: 37:51

And when we're in that in love phase, everything feels safe and wonderful and we think, finally, this is the person who can help us. We don't think let's go with your example. Unconsciously, a part of us says, maybe this is the one who can help me with this, who will love me and make it safe enough so I can heal this. And so we've picked this person who's going to help us heal this part of ourselves, which is kind of unfair when you think about it.

Rich: 38:14

We all have some form of trauma. Without going into what trauma is about, to hope that your partner is going to help you heal, that is kind of a tall order. I mean, that's kind of why we have Emma Viglucci's in the world. That's why we have licensed therapists, people who are trained in this, to help with that. So it's kind of almost from the beginning. It's almost unfair. And that's when the toxicity comes in, and the toxicity is all the way we were taught to defend ourselves as children. The toxicity is all the things we learned from our families and it's things that worked for us when we were kids or in our family of origin. That won't work in a partnership.

Emma: 38:53

That's beautiful, wow, yes, so a few things in there, I agree. So I call it. This is Mother Nature's way of making sure that we get now where we didn't get growing up, right. So I thought I'm fairness in that match, but I also call our partner partner with a capital P. They are the most important person to help you evolve and grow and become your best self and stop leading with your defenses and the things and the habits and all this stuff that doesn't serve you at the end of the day. So in that partnership, the way I like to frame it is not that they're responsible for our healing, but within our interactions there's possibility for healing and evolving and growing, and so together we take care of each other in that way, and that's what's so beautiful about relationships, right? So that's what we I help people see, and, from everything you just said, you do as well. So when we operate from that place, then the relationship is a fertile ground for all that awesomeness. And yay, now we're no longer enemies, we're allies, right, so it's fabulous.

Emma: 39:59

And I love that you call it toxicity, all those defenses from growing up, all the ways that doesn't really work of taking care of ourselves. Perfect, that was beautiful.

Rich: 40:08

That was beautiful. Part of the thing that I work with the men on. The concept I give the men who I work with is that they need to approach their partnership like ballroom dancing.

Emma: 40:23

Oh, I love it.

Rich: 40:24

Yeah, you know, it's funny because most of them have never done ballroom dancing and I hadn't until my wife took me to learn. But my ballroom and dancer instructor said you are the lead, but you don't tell her how to dance. You know, as the lead, you provide a frame and you take predictable steps, you know, and she does whatever she wants with that. And the first time we went ballroom dancing we did this where I was supposed to spin her out and I was holding her hand and the instructor said you know, you can let go of her hand, she will come back. And it was like this. It was like this major relationship, a ha moment for me, like I didn't even know I was doing that, you know, and she got chills, yeah, right but.

Rich: 41:18

Simone Asbeck, great dancer, she does, I know her. Yeah, simone really broke it down for me. You know, she said your job as the man is to offer a reference point, a frame, and your wife is going to do what she does and you're going to allow her to do what she does and just trust that she will always come back to the frame. You know, and that's like that image, that's the image of masculinity today, you know that is gorgeous for the listeners.

Emma: 41:45

You're familiar with the concepts on feminine and masculine energy and being one of those two ways of being in the world and embodying that more for yourself, depending on how you identify, then usually the masculine energy is defined as the door, the frame, the structure, the discipline, right, and it doesn't mean that I don't have male energy in me and that you don't have female energy in you, right? So we're a mixture of like. That's what makes us human, but the women are the content, right? So, if you may like, the men are the context and the women are the content. So the women are the stuff that fills in the structure, right, so you have the home. Who does usually the homie stuff and I don't want to get into trouble here with some gender stereotypical things but the women are the ones that are the gatherers, right?

Rich: 42:41

Women, as child bearers, tend to be more nest builders right, and men provide the tree that the nest gets built in.

Emma: 42:50

I love it, exactly, exactly. And we don't have to pitch on whole ourselves and this doesn't have to be so black and white like that. Right, there's not like line on the same and we're a spectrum of humanity here, but when we honor our inclinations and our leanings and we own our side and we allow our partner to own theirs, and we show up with our strengths and we allow them to show up with theirs, and we are curious about what those things are we create something beautiful, but instead we tend to poo on the other person's strengths and we allow them to poo on ours, and that doesn't work for the relationship at the end of the day, right?

Emma: 43:25

So let's bring it home Rich. Any thoughts on what does the man need? This is for the men who are listening, so they could communicate this properly to their partner, and so I'm talking to the male energy, not just the gender. And then what does the, what can the women do? What the feminine energy do, so that they both have each other's back and their own back?

Rich: 43:52

On the most basic level when it comes to communication. The studies show this isn't just me talking out of my ear, keep it clean. The studies show that men are looking for respect and understanding. And what understanding means, by the way, because men, when they think of understanding, don't think of it the same way as women. What understanding means is they want to make sure that their partner understands where they're going, and very often men get frustrated because they communicate something and it's heard as going in a different direction than they intended, sometimes because the emotion underneath it might be going in a different direction than they intended. But that's like a big frustration for men. They want their partner to understand where they're going in their conversation and at least in what they think their intention is, and they want to be respected.

Rich: 44:48

For women, the studies show it tends to be more on. They want to be heard. They just don't feel that. I don't mean that. They want men to hear the feeling they're having and the fact, not just the facts, and so men have a tendency to get stuck on facts. Why? Because they're goal oriented, so that, oh well, the facts say this, it adds up to that, but they don't always hear the feeling, and so that's on a basic level.

Emma: 45:18

So I love how you went with the man need to be understood in terms of where they go on, either in the conversation or in general. I'm going to add, like do you come for a hand, what I'm saying, where I'm going, where is this leading to, or what my intention is, as opposed to what's coming out of my mouth per se.

Rich: 45:37

Or what I'm feeling. They might be feeling something very contradictory to what their intention is, because men are or the way that they're expressing it right.

Rich: 45:45

Men really aren't great or as good at being connected to their feelings as women are. They're not as well wired for it. That doesn't mean they and that's the big challenge for the guys I work with, whether they're a couple or they're on their own is empathy. I've got specific exercise I give these guys and intellectual exercises to help them learn how to be empathetic, because it's literally a matter of training.

Emma: 46:10

Okay. So guys need to be heard, in terms of purpose and in terms of respect and how they are speaking, what the communication is. So for the women who are listening, keep that in mind when you're listening to your man or to your partner. That's more male-oriented, masculinity-oriented. And for the guy, to make sure that you're communicating that that's their desire, or that that would synchronize, help you along.

Rich: 46:35

Yeah, you want to understand where it is they think that they're going, not how it sounds to you like you're going, how that feels. Like where they want to go, because they might be pissed off and that's going to muddy things up. You want to understand the frame of where they think they're trying to go.

Emma: 46:52

Right, so, yeah, so the guys need this respect and this feeling heard that there's an intention, that they're going somewhere, so they could preempt that, to show their partner okay, this is what I'm trying to get out of this conversation. Kind of like some kind of their intention. So then the women are not feeling attacked and the women to recognize that that's what's happening, that they're not being attacked, and so they could listen and provide that for the guy the other way around as well. Right, so the women like you were saying earlier so you did say it right they want their emotions to be heard and understood. So if they could explain and lead with that, I don't need this fixed, right, I just want to be understood, I just want to be heard. I just want to look around and walk around in the distance.

Rich: 48:04

But that's especially. Men go there because they're sure of where they're going and they're sure how their partner is not going there with them and no matter what they say, they're not going there with them, no matter what.

Rich: 48:18

But it can happen on both sides. But I think for the women, as you alluded to, it's probably going to be more about making sure that the men understand that you understand what it is they really want, even if they're showing up in contradiction to that. What they really want and usually what the man really wants is they want to have a loving relationship and a happy family.

Emma: 48:44

They want to think of their family.

Rich: 48:46

They're just freaking clueless. We are clueless is the problem.

Emma: 48:50

I wouldn't necessarily say that. I think you mentioned that a few times that you might be showing, the guys might be showing up a certain way, but there's all this emotion going on underneath and that might be confusing to the interactions in the moment. And so for both partners to honor that, I might be yelling, but I don't mean to. I might be angry, but I'm not angry at you, or I might be, angry at you, but my intention is to reconnect with you, right.

Rich: 49:16

So an anger can be expressed that way safely. And here I think there's this is kind of a missing piece for men. Though we don't make it okay for men to have feelings, I think part of it is to make it okay for the men to know that there are times when it's all right for him to be vulnerable, to be sad, to feel hurt, to feel fearful. You know that you won't think he's less of a man for having it. And of course, the problem with those feelings for the man who instinctively wants to be the protector is you can't protect anyone when you're in those feelings, when you're in those feelings you feel like a victim.

Emma: 49:50

Right. Well, you feel incompetent or it's not good, like how are you going to be protective if you're feeling weak?

Rich: 49:56

Right.

Emma: 49:57

So, oh my gosh, I love that incongruency for guys. I feel bad. I totally hear that and I think that if, as women, if we could have that compassion for how we might set guys up in that predicament, that we might get a lot more mileage out of the situation.

Rich: 50:13

Any last parting words that you want to say, I have a gift for any man or woman who knows a man who needs help or who wants help exploring what it means to be a man in 2023, going on 2024. I have this Unbreakable Husbands program, which has brought in men in all different stages of marital bliss or lack thereof, and I am giving away the first two weeks of this program as a gift to anyone who's interested. I'm sure that you'll find that in the notes.

Emma: 50:48

Perfect, yes. So if you want to own your manhood more and serve your family with it more, and if you have a man who you would think would benefit from it, this is a very generous offer from Rich. I will put that link in the notes so that you could access it easily. And, rich, it's been a pleasure. As usual, our conversations are always so rich and I really appreciate you coming to Hangout with me and sharing your wisdom in this podcast. And there was just there were so many different ways that at any moment that conversation could have gone, so maybe we should do another one at another time and keep exploring this topic so beautiful.

Rich: 51:31

It's such a pleasure and thank you so much for having me on the show and congratulations on your podcast, and you know I adore you. I love the work that you're doing. I so appreciate you and I know that you're helping so many people by doing this and that's really what we're in this for.

Emma: 51:47

Thank you so much, Rich. You're amazing. Thank you so much for coming today and for sharing time with me, and I will see you soon and for the listeners, I will catch you at the next one. Bye.