Thriving Through Transitions, Creating New Beginnings w/ Deborah Donenfeld (Ep.9)

Yes, is that time of year when we are looking for our New Beginning, to start fresh. We transition into a new chunk of time with the expectation that things will be different. That we’ll make all the changes we want to realize everything we desire… 

The thing is that change and transitions can be challenging… If it was so easy to create change most people wouldn’t struggle in life and they’d go through transitions with flying colors. 

We all know that is hardly ever the case. If anything, transitions are times when life gets even more challenging, when we get triggered, and when we don’t feel so good. 

And, even when we go through transitions we desire like getting married, having a baby, moving to a new home, starting a new job, or a New Year – we can still have a bumpy road…

In today’s episode, I have a lovely conversation with Deborah Donenfeld about creating change and how to have our back when going through transitions... 

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🌟ABOUT OUR GUEST:

Deborah Donenfeld is the owner of Photosynthesis Coaching, and a life coach specializing in supporting people in midlife who are starting over. She has been coaching for over 12 years, and moved into this niche when her own life was turned upside down and she found herself in the position of navigating several big and painful changes all at once. Deborah coaches from the heart and compassionately helps her clients to work their edge and move through tough changes with grace. You can find her at PhotosynthesisCoaching.com.

Gift from Deborah:

30-45 min Complimentary Consult

Find her here: 

IG | LinkedIn

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More about the podcast on our Podcast Page 

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DISCLAIMER: This content is meant to support your Journey and not as a replacement for professional assistance. Additionally, the ideas and resources provides by our guests are their ideas and recommendations alone and not necessarily a reflection of the host’s.

Chapters

• 5:36 Transitions and Change Can Be Hard
• 12:13 What to Expect When in the Trenches
• 21:19 Discomfort and Pain Are a Path to Growth
• 27:17 Embracing a New Beginning

Transcript

Emma: 0:05

Hello lovelies, welcome to another episode today. I am so excited to bring you a very special guest, Deborah Donenfeld, who does work with transitions in helping people create new beginnings - a special, specific, perfect topic for this time of year. I am so excited to have this conversation with Deborah today to help us identify what makes change so challenging and transitions so difficult, and how to go about doing that seamlessly and as easily as possible so that we can create the life that we want, regardless of what we are going through, and we could have new beginnings at any time that we desire. Stay tuned, you're in for a treat. Hello and welcome.

Emma: 1:04

I have a lovely new friend today to share her expertise, her wisdom and her beauty with us. She does amazing work with people who are having big changes in their lives and who are going through transitions. I'm going to read her bio and then we'll say hello to Deborah Donenfeld. She is the owner of Photosynthesis Coaching and she's the life coach specializing in supporting people in midlife who are starting over. She has been coaching for over 12 years and moved into the niche when she had her own big changes in her life. Her life felt like it was upside down and she found herself in a position of navigating several big things and painful at the same time and all at once. So Deborah coaches from the heart and compassionately helps her clients to work their edge and move through tough changes with grace. Thank you so much for being here with us today, Deborah. I really appreciate you agreeing to come and share your wisdom and all the beautiful nuggets that you have to help people who are having a hard time.

Deborah: 2:15

Thank you so much.

Emma: 2:16

Yeah, so why don't we jump in with a big question, and that is what kind of changes in transitions do people usually experience in their life? What are some of the life transitions and things that people generally experience and usually also what are the ones that you specialize with?

Deborah: 2:38

Right. So I mean, life is full of change, it's all change, right, and so there are many, many kinds of change, and some of them we navigate without a problem and some of them are really difficult, and the ones that are difficult for me might not be difficult for you and vice versa. So I mean, I would say the changes that people come to me with most often are either they're thinking about retirement or they're going through a divorce or a big breakup, or they're going through empty nest, or they've lost a job and their whole identity was wrapped up in that job. And so who are they and how do they move forward? And a lot of these changes are about identity.

Deborah: 3:23

Sometimes people come to me if they've had to move and it was a home that they thought they would live in for their entire lives, and that's creating a lot of feelings and resistance. So those are generally the kinds of changes. There are other changes too. Sometimes I've had some people come to me when their kids have gone to kindergarten and that's like a mini empty nest. Some of us it's no big deal and in fact maybe we're even a little bit happy to have some time to ourselves because our kids are going off to school. But for some people it's like what do I do now and who am I without taking care of my kids 24/7? So that's a little bit of a taste of the different kinds of changes.

Emma: 4:09

Yes, I love that, and something else that I usually encounter is having kids.

Deborah: 4:15

Having kids for sure, or even getting and those are the changes, like having children or getting married, where you might not feel allowed to have any negative feelings about it, because it's something you wanted, it's something you're actually very happy about, and it's confusing that you might feel a sense of loss for your old life and because we have this sort of dualistic society or a society where we think in dualistic terms, we feel like, well, I can't be happy and sad at the same time, but actually we can and we can have a multitude of feelings at the same time. And sometimes, even with these changes that are so exciting and so good and so much what we want, we also have a loss and we have to be able to mourn those losses at the same time and allow ourselves to mourn those losses, even for the happy things, absolutely.

Emma: 5:17

I love that exactly. So the changes could be large or small, tragic, negative, or we consider negative, or painful or happy ones, and yet they could all be challenging in their own way, because there is some inherent things in changes and in transitions. So what does make changes and transitions challenging? Why is change hard?

Deborah: 5:43

I think that change is hard. Well, first of all, a little bit about what we were just talking about. Like we have an idea of how we're supposed to feel about them and then, when we don't, we have all kinds of judgments about that, and I think the unknown is really, really hard for people. Just for humanity. We don't like to jump into something, jump into something, a big dark hole. We don't know what's going to happen on the other side. We like to have control, we like to know what we're getting into, and especially when we're forced into a change that we didn't want, we haven't even had time to maybe prepare ourselves mentally for it, so that jumping into the unknown can be very, very scary. I think that that's a big part of why we don't like it.

Emma: 6:38

What a good point exactly, especially if it wasn't something that we sought out. As we said, they are challenging, even with things that we want. So even with things that we don't want or that just got sprung on us even harder, because now you have to adjust to this whole new thing.

Deborah: 7:00

That's right, and just imagine if it's hard to make a change that you wanted. How much harder is it going to be to make a change that you didn't want? And we like to get settled into our lives, think we know what to expect, even though we know somewhere in our minds that we have no control. Really, we have very little control over what happens, but we fool ourselves into thinking that we do have control because that makes it easier to put one foot in the front of the other and take the steps that we need to take to move forward in our lives. And this is like a rude awakening kind of like having a child. The child is there, I think, first and foremost to show us that actually you thought you have control over your life. You don't have any control. Things are going to happen that you cannot control, yeah, and that happens with a lot of different kinds of change.

Emma: 7:50

Yeah, absolutely so, right. So even if you like it, it's hard. Even if you wanted it, it's hard, Never mind if you didn't want it, and especially if you weren't anticipated or expecting it. If it surprises you because now it's upside down and you're not ready for it.

Deborah: 8:06

You're not ready for it and it may just not be how you saw your life moving forward. If you saw yourself living in a particular home for the rest of your life within your community and now suddenly you have to move, that's a real jarring effect. Or if you're getting a divorce when you thought you were going to be staying together and then you're worried about the impact on the kids. Also, if you have children, it may also be changes that you. It's hard to see the benefit Because you're so invested in the benefit of your life being the way it is and the way you had planned for it to be.

Emma: 8:54

That is perfect, right? I think that's a huge thing, aside from trying to have control and we know that we can't, right, because things just play out. No matter how much we exert control of power over something, things still potentially go sideways or play out differently than we had expected. But aside from that, I love. What you just said is okay. You respected things to be a certain way or to play out a certain way, or you were committed to the thing or the person and you had this idea of how things were going to be, and now it's not. So earlier you mentioned a loss. Now we're talking about adjusting to something different, so having maybe like an identity tied into also what was or what is and what is happening was to become, and that's just like woohoo, right? So how does that play out?

Deborah: 9:47

Well, I think that that's a really good point, that it often really is about identity. And I tell a sort of funny story about a bicycle that I used to have. I love that bicycle. It was a bicycle from the 70s. It was really a nice bike. It was black, it was just beautiful, and I rode that bike everywhere. It was my mode of transportation. That's how I got everywhere and I was completely identified with that bike. And the day it got stolen it was like a part of me was gone.

Deborah: 10:20

And if I'm identifying with something as seemingly insignificant as a bicycle, like, just imagine when you're uprooted or you're getting a divorce and now, even if you maybe wanted the divorce but now you have to maybe come to terms with the fact that, wow, my idea of living with the father of my children for the rest of my life is upended. And who am I if I'm not the person who is doing that? Or who am I if I don't have this job in academia or whatever industry it is that I'm in that I am so fully identified with? Or who am I if my kids are gone and now I'm not in a mothering role all the time? Of course you're always a mother right, or your father, but if that is not, if your identity is so wrapped up in that, then that's really what you have to grapple with when it's taken away or when you give it up.

Emma: 11:26

Right, because the identities inform how we feel about ourselves, how we think about ourselves, the things that we do, the habits, the behaviors, the routines. Like it just informs everything, the filter. And now you remove this label and it's like now, what do I filter through? Like now, how do I make decisions, how do I adjust, how, what do I do on a daily basis, how do I introduce myself to people, or what is the meaning of my life, and like all these different things might come out. That's right, yeah, so super powerful, not for nothing is challenging to go through changes in people.

Deborah: 12:02

That's right. That's right because we make so much meaning about everything.

Emma: 12:06

Yes, yes, yes, okay, wonderful, I love that. So, if that's what's happening we already mentioned loss and in the struggle, but what else do you think people are experiencing? Feeling under loss? What else does this shift, this upendedness, mean for people? What is the impact? What do people experience?

Deborah: 12:29

Well, I think that they may at first experience a real resistance, especially if it's a shock like wait what? No, I don't want that. And they may try to do everything they can to sort of roll back what's happening. And I think that there is, I think that there's a lot of grief associated with change. I think that that is sort of the biggest thing and grief is a huge topic, right, and it's not just about when somebody dies. Right, it's grief can although of course those are other people that I work with as people who have lost somebody right that there's a lot of grief involved and there can be anger, there can be resistance and there can be all you know, all those steps that we know and that people go through in grief, all of the denial and all of those things. But I think that often it's a real, it's a real, just sense of sadness and loss and if people can allow themselves to just be with that and feel what they feel.

Deborah: 13:40

And I had a client who had lost her spouse and was talking to me about you know how she couldn't believe it, that she, she just didn't want to do anything. It was hard for her to sleep, it was hard for her to get up all those things that are associated with grief. And I said how long has it been since your husband died? And she said it's been four weeks. Oh gosh, like it was. That was enough time. That should have been enough time. She didn't. This is a side of herself that she didn't know, that she had never experienced, it was unfamiliar. So I think that's also another part of it. You're seeing yourself in a way that you've never seen yourself before and while you're getting to know that side of yourself, I think it can be very unsettling and it can be very scary. How long is this going to last? It feels like it's going to last forever. I'm I can't feel like this for the rest of my life because I can't not be able to do anything or move forward.

Emma: 14:39

Right, wow, yes, so there's so many things in the whole range there, right? So from anger, resistance to sadness and loss and grief and denial, like the whole thing, I'm going to throw in their anxiety, depression, just feel absolutely up and down and turn around and inside out, right it may be up and down, right.

Deborah: 15:03

You may have moments where you there may be moments of relief, depending on what it was right. I do feel relief about this. I am enjoying this aspect of my new life, or I'm looking forward to this, but I'm also feeling really sad and I'm feeling really anxious and scared.

Emma: 15:23

Right, right. They might love the change they might have beautiful feelings around that joy and excitement, and also like, oh, my goodness, this is scary or overwhelming, right, yeah, all those feelings Very nice. So do you find that people don't own those feelings, so that they struggle owning that experience or that they dismiss it, minimize it, not own it? Like, how do people feel?

Deborah: 15:51

Yeah, I find that that happens sometimes. I mean, in the example I just gave, like I all right, I'm letting myself feel the feelings, but for this amount of time and then I should be over it. Right, decide when I should be over it, the universe has other plans. And then I think I hear a lot of. You know, people have it so much worse than I do. People are starving and experiencing war and you know, I didn't go through the Holocaust. So you know or I wasn't, I didn't experience slavery. So how I shouldn't feel this way, you know it's. I don't really have the right to feel this way, because other people have it so much worse than I do. You know, I have a friend who's going through ABCD and E. I'm only going through A. Well, you know, you feel what you feel right and you're having the experience you're having. And if you dismiss that feeling because you feel like you're not entitled to it, you're not actually helping yourself to move through it, you're just pushing it away.

Emma: 16:58

Right.

Deborah: 16:59

And that voice, that voice of sadness or whatever emotion you're having, is just going to have to talk louder. If you're shouting over it with, you shouldn't feel this way. It's going to come out in other ways in your life.

Emma: 17:18

Excellent. Yeah, you know, and I could imagine that that's especially true for people who are going through changes and transitions of things that they wanted or happy things, right, right. So I hear this a lot post weddings, you know people, oh, interesting.

Emma: 17:37

They're planning the wedding. They're planning the wedding, they get married, and then it's like whoops, there's like a huge letdown after the wedding planning. Right, because, like all that investment that went into the wedding planning and that not the transition to an identity of being married and the wedding planning and so on, there's just all so many things that play out at that place. But then they feel bad, that they're feeling bad.

Deborah: 17:59

Right, and there's so much distraction in the planning of the wedding that, even if feelings might be coming up around this big change that's going to happen, they're in a time to even think about it or hear that voice or address it.

Deborah: 18:14

They don't actually even really realize it's happening. So then that makes total sense and it reminds me a little bit of you know. I know you're saying a wedding, which is a happy experience, but like a divorce can go one of a few ways also, like you can, I think in the most, in most cases, people get to be either when they, when the decision is made and or after the divorce. There are a lot of feelings that come up. But you can have a partner who decided that this is what they want and spent a year or two or three thinking about it, talking about it with their spouse, planning it or even, before saying anything to their spouse, spending a lot of time mourning and working through all those feelings before it actually happens so that maybe, once it happens, they actually just feel relief. But that mourning and that work and all those heavy, hard feelings have to happen, have to be given space at some point, right For sure, I love that.

Emma: 19:22

You said earlier that if the feelings are honored that at some point they'll come out, they'll come out. Some way they come out.

Deborah: 19:31

I feel like they come out some way.

Deborah: 19:32

Either they come out in a very sort of an acting out way, like the emotions.

Deborah: 19:38

Just you don't even know why you're angry and you're getting angry at somebody, but it's displaced, it's not actually at the thing or the person that you're angry at.

Deborah: 19:46

But I think also, feelings are energy, they're energy in our bodies and I really believe that when you suppress those feelings, that energy has to go into something else and I really believe that that's the root of a lot of illness. That's why we get sick, whether it's cold or something more severe, that those feelings, if we don't allow them to be expressed or to be fully felt. Because I don't think that you need to be, like you know, necessarily expressing your anger in a big angry way at somebody, but it may be energy that you need to get out, which is maybe through hitting a tennis racket on your mattress. Or, you know, I know somebody has suggested once, you know, get a dozen eggs and throw the eggs at as hard as you can in the bathtub, you know, like get the energy out, or just allow yourself to sit and fully feel it and see what it's doing in your body, you know and have that somatic experience? Yeah, how?

Emma: 20:56

About release the feelings. For sure, whether not expressed or felt, they get stuck in the grease, all kinds of stuff within your body, but also relationally, and you know, yes, of your life right, so they manifest in a lot of different ways. So what do you think and how do you help people know how to cope with all of this, how to manage their feelings? You already gave two examples, but you know anything else that you want to share about that. But also, like, what to do, like, how do they know, how do I deal with this change or this transition? My life is upside down Now. Now, why, what the heck do I do?

Deborah: 21:37

Yeah, and I think that what happens often is some there's a very big, there's a big change and you have a lot of big feelings about it, and it makes everything else in your life feel unmanageable. So then it feels like everything is changing and everything is hard. Now it may be true, there may be a lot of things going on, but I find that there is often one thing at the root that that's like the big, it's like the biggest rock in the backpack. You know you have a backpack full of rocks. If you take the biggest one out, it's going to lighten it up a lot. Yeah, so right.

Deborah: 22:14

So how can we identify what that is? I mean, usually in my sessions I do a lot of somatic work, a lot of work of like well, just okay, if this feeling is coming up, let's like, let's see where it is in your body, let's try to feel it and just sit with it. And I think that the most surprising things for people is that when they actually allow themselves to feel it, it can move through them and out, Whereas the fear is I'm going to have. If I really allow myself to feel it, it will never go away.

Emma: 22:42

And so that's interesting. Yeah it is interesting.

Deborah: 22:46

Yeah, no, I was going to say so. That's a big tool that I use both in my sessions and that I have my clients do on their own when they feel these things coming up. And I had a client who I was working with to decide whether or not to retire and then to actually go through. He just did decide to retire and then work through the retirement. But when he came to me he had I don't know four or five different issues that just seemed so big that he didn't know where to begin. And we worked through it to sort of identify this retirement issue as something that he really did want.

Deborah: 23:20

And you know, we gave him a lot of tools and we spent, I guess, about six months working together on this and in the end he felt so good about that decision, it was the right thing for him and all the other things that he had to decide. He just felt like I don't, I can. Just, I have the tools now, and I don't feel worried about it and I can. As these things come up, I'll work with them, but right now I feel good where things are.

Emma: 23:51

You know what Deborah and I couldn't imagine that when somebody has a big decision that they have to make, like retirement, whether to get married, whether to get divorced, whether, to move across the globe or across country or or across town, whatever.

Emma: 24:06

The thing is that it feels so big because it's again life changing to some extent, but then, because it feels so big, there's all this other piece, or it feels so big, rather, because there's all the pieces that are attached to it, and then it feels like, oh my gosh, so much I don't know what to start. Right, what do I do? And so I love that. You said, if you remove the first big rock out of the backpack, okay, what is it? What is the thing? That if we make a decision around that it's almost like a domino effect and like everything else kind of falls into place, because then then you kind of everything is close from that big decision or from that big move.

Deborah: 24:40

Right, that's right.

Emma: 24:41

Just pull the lever on the biggest thing and everything's like right.

Deborah: 24:45

Or you realize that you were thinking about making these other changes. But you're actually making, trying to make those other changes to see if you could make yourself feel better. But actually it doesn't. You don't feel bad about it anymore once you've, you know, removed that big rock, right oh?

Emma: 25:01

Wonderful, yes what a good point, totally right. So they're trying to make decisions on things that might not. If you make this big decision or you remove this big rock, then some of these other things are irrelevant or they have to do with making yourself just feel better momentarily, but once you take care of this thing, then all of that goes away. Right, beautiful, yeah, right, what a good point. I love it. So then, how do you think people know what is that big rock like? What is the thing that they have to focus?

Deborah: 25:27

Well, that's the thing, that, that we sort of work through to find out and we want to get it all out. What are all the thoughts and all the feelings and all the concerns and all the anxieties? Let's sort of get it all out and and and we see what sort of bubbles to the top I feel like it's important in all of my sessions to work with. I always say what's most present for you, what's most present for you right now? I know you've got all of these things, but what is the thing?

Deborah: 25:52

Because some people have this idea that, well, this, I've been really thinking about this, but I don't want to work on that. I want to work on this, and I usually say let's address this thing that's the most present because it's going to be connected to that. We're going to work through that, that thing that you really want to work on, but it's going to be hard to work on that if we can't get this obstacle out of the way. You know, so usually, and and it may be that we just need to sort of get past this and then we can move on to that other thing, or this is the thing, and by talking about this we actually come up with a solution for the other thing.

Emma: 26:29

Oh, I love that so much. Exactly that's what's up in my sessions with couples, and that you know they're obviously mad at each other and they want to talk about something else, like some agenda item that they've had, right. Well, if you're not even barely talking to each other, how can we talk about the other thing? Let's figure out how to talk to each other first and get back on good with grace. First, that's right, right, that's right, and then through that, dynamics come out, all the things come out, and then you could use that for the other thing.

Deborah: 26:53

Right. Sometimes they come up with a solution in that moment, right, like, oh well, now that we sort of work through and I'm talking to you in this way and I have an understanding of for me, it would be what I'm feeling, for you it would be what the other person is feeling. Right, I can actually offer a different possible solution to this problem that we're not even talking about.

Emma: 27:14

I love it. Exactly. Very, very nice.

Deborah: 27:17

Yeah.

Emma: 27:17

And so what are some things that people can do to make all of this easier for themselves?

Deborah: 27:23

Well, I think first they may have to let go of the idea that it's going to be easy or easier. It's not easy, right, it's not easy, and sort of accepting that this is not going to be easy. Some of the things that I did when I went through a lot of the changes myself was just really well. I had a lot of tools and a lot of things that I did. But one of the things that I said to myself was I know that I have to have a certain amount of discomfort or pain in order to grow into who I'm meant to be.

Emma: 27:55

Oh, beautiful.

Deborah: 27:56

And so if I'm feeling a lot of pain right now, it means that I'm growing. And then I used to say I'm going to be really, really big on the other side of this. I'm going to be so big, you know, I mean, and that helped. It was sort of a funny way of me to sort of talk to myself and get myself through it and to allow me to trust that this is where I'm supposed to be. It feels really bad and I'm really afraid, but there's some reason that I'm here, because on the other side of this is the reward for me, and I don't know what that reward is, I don't know what my life is going to look like. But if I can let go of the fear long enough to trust that this is where I'm meant to be, then I can take the next steps and I can move forward.

Emma: 28:49

That's probably the hardest thing out of all of it.

Deborah: 28:52

Yeah, I think so.

Emma: 28:54

You know just how do I trust, how do I let go, how do I not control, how do I sit with this pain and trust that I'm going to be okay on the other side. That's right, that's right.

Deborah: 29:05

It is hard and some of that is, you know, they're like the breath, and journaling are really good tools for that. Yoga is really for sitting in what is, because our anxiety and our fear is all about what's going to happen in the future. Whether the future is tomorrow or the future is a year from now, or the future is 10 years from now, it's all about what's. So, if you can say, I am, I'm sitting here now, I am alive, I'm breathing, I feel the breath in my body. I had lunch today. I'm not starving. I fed my children today. I have a roof over my head.

Deborah: 29:44

Right now, in this moment, I'm fine. I just have to connect to the next moment where I'm fine yeah, you know that I think that's a sort of and you may have to do it every five minutes I'm fine in this moment, you know. And and to remind yourself, when you're feeling that fear come up, that fear is about something in the future. Right now, I'm okay. And that doesn't mean you sit back and you don't do anything and you just trust that the universe is going to take care of everything, because you know you have to take action. It's like that idea that the universe reflects back to you what you put out. So if you put out waiting, then the universe is going to reflect back waiting.

Emma: 30:30

Oh my goodness, you just changed a lot of people's lives without one payment.

Emma: 30:36

Yeah, maybe that was like two by two against the forehead. Okay, sorry about that. Wow, so many things come up from you. We're saying all of that, let's see. The first thing that I want to observe is If anybody listening to this is having a reaction about while you aid and you have a roof over your head and some of the basic needs are met, and you're thinking about other people who don't have that, you know what do they do. A couple of things that I would like to say, and then, of course, you could want to hear your thoughts, Deborah. I want to address that in two ways. One is that we don't want to be callous and say, well, we got to focus on ourselves, but we don't have control over other people's lives and what their journey is and what they're choosing to experience and what their life is. They didn't choose it or how it happened for them. At some level, there is a creation there.

Emma: 31:40

That's for them to choose and do their own life. Our is to do ours. That's the first thought. The other thought is even they have blessings, even in those moments, if they really pause and take stock. The fact that they're even breathing and they have a body, that's a blessing. So there's always something to be grateful for. Even in the most horrific of situations, there's always still something.

Deborah: 32:12

You're right. You're right. We don't want to be callous and we don't want to compare somebody who is food insecure, is starving, is homeless. These are problems that exist for people. Absolutely, we can sit in gratitude for what we do have, and it doesn't mean that we're not in crisis. It doesn't mean that we're not having all these feelings that we're having. So, if we want to, I have a yoga teacher who was just saying this weekend. She was saying gratitude is so important and what is the outpost of gratitude? What is the next step from gratitude? The next step is service.

Deborah: 32:55

So be in a place of gratitude so that you can get to a place of being able to serve others. Beautiful, take care of. If you're in a crisis situation, you may need to take care of yourself emotionally and physically. At this moment, you may not be in a place of being able to serve other people if you are truly in crisis and you can first get to the place where you are in a better place and then you can remind yourself of all the things you have to be grateful of. Move forward so that you can get to a place of then being able to serve others, whether that is your children, or that is, people through your work, or that is through your philanthropy, or that is through the volunteer work that you do. They're all different ways that we are here on this planet to serve people absolutely.

Emma: 33:53

Very nice. That's very nicely said, thank you. So the other thing that's coming up is how are we aware of what space we're in? What might we need? How do we proceed? Everything that we've said so far, like how does that impact our next moves, and what we need and how we go about them- Well, I think what you're pointing to is a certain level of self-awareness of under.

Deborah: 34:32

Really, I think it all starts with the feelings. What am I feeling? What is going on for me? What am I? Something happens, I have a feeling about it, and then I make meaning about it, and then I have feelings about the meaning. So how can I differentiate between what is the feeling I'm having about this thing that actually happened and what is the feeling I'm having about the meaning that I've made the story I've told myself about that thing?

Emma: 35:19

Excellent.

Deborah: 35:19

Right. I lost my job. Wow, I'm really disappointed and upset and maybe I feel betrayed or all kinds of things right, and this means I'm never going to be able to get another job and that means that people have been talking about me behind my back for years, or whatever it is the story that you make up.

Deborah: 35:41

And then you have all kinds of feelings about that and then you're angry at the people for talking about you behind your back or saying these things or not standing up for you and actually have no idea that that actually happened. So the place to start is realizing well, where am I doing that, where am I making up a story, where am I making meaning and what is the actual feeling? And once I can sit with the actual feeling and allow it, then the next step will come out of that. The next step will come once you have honored, whatever it is, the feeling that you have.

Emma: 36:15

The self-awareness, this acknowledging of our feelings, honoring this feelings. Then, what do we do with that?

Deborah: 36:24

So then you sort of I mean, as I was saying before, like often that feeling once we honor and we feel it, and we let it move through us, often there are messages in the feelings, I find.

Emma: 36:37

Yeah.

Deborah: 36:38

There are messages that come to us, right? There's also a lot of information in our feelings. If you're really angry about something, how often do people talk themselves out of that anger? Well, wait a minute. If you're really angry about something, then there may be a reason. And what's the message in there? Is this a situation that's not good for you or that's toxic in some way and your body's reacting to it, or is there some other feeling that's underneath there that's harder to feel? That anger is your go-to feeling, but actually there's a lot of sadness and you don't like to feel sad. And then what are the messages in the sadness? Right, and can I allow myself to feel sad? And I find that that often sort of very naturally leads to the next step, or to taking a step, or to understanding what that next right step is. You don't have to know the end, you just have to know what you feel in your body is the next right step, and that often comes through the feelings.

Emma: 37:41

That's mind-boggling blowing. Like I said, mind-blowing for a lot of people. Yeah, A lot of people don't like feelings and everything needs to be logical and everything needs to be pros and cons, list in their logic and bend the logic and connect all the dust and the gazillion million waste and they still don't have an answer right and what I usually say.

Emma: 38:01

This is not a logical problem right, this is an emotional situation, an emotional air quotes problem, but if we honor the feelings and we get in touch, information is there that we could use right.

Deborah: 38:14

That's right, and that's how we learn to get in touch with our intuition too. That's how we learn to access that, because you can make the list of pros and cons. That's great. Sometimes that's helpful I mean, I'm not going to lie like that can be helpful sometimes in some situations. Right, can you get in touch with oh that really resonates or that really doesn't resonate for me, right? This feels like this feels scary to me, but it feels like it's the thing I need to do. Now how do you differentiate? That's hard.

Emma: 38:45

I love how you're saying that, because as soon as you connect it to intuition, some people could just hear people's reactions right, like intuition. Like you have to make logical decisions. Right, like what do you mean intuition? But the way that you just describe that, that's actually intuition. That people might necessarily call that intuition. Right, like some people who are not as in touch with themselves or the softer side of themselves and that's that resonate. Does that feel that I would honor me or that would make sense for me? Right? Or, however, like you want to play with language in a way that actually your access and that intuition you're just not calling it intuition.

Deborah: 39:21

Right. People access it all the time without realizing it right for sure.

Emma: 39:26

Sometimes, in terms of creating our life vision and doing life goals and setting ourselves up especially this time of year when people are planning for the upcoming year that those people who plan and go in vision and stuff right, oh, I should have goals or I should do this. So that's the next logical thing that I should be doing, or this is something that I should want, or the next step in my career, or the next step in my business, or the next thing in my life, I don't know right. And and he said, yeah, but maybe you're forcing it. Like that Is it? This should, right, so the things, or like that's a, really serve you and what you're creating right at the end of the day.

Deborah: 40:03

Right, and it's such a great moment. Sometimes when they're like I know I should just, but I don't want to do it, and it's like great, we just pause there. You don't want to do it. That's a very real thing, right, just sit with that for a minute. Right, it's great that you have identified that you don't want to do this. So now we have to sort of see is that you want to? Is that something you just need to trust? Are there other reasons behind that? I don't want to do it? Right, you know? Yes, I do know.

Emma: 40:33

Very, very nice. So are there good practices to put in place to help people with this owning acknowledgement, becoming aware of their feelings and honoring them, and just some of this parsing out that you're talking about, and just some of this sitting so that they could? They could just like, okay, like what is this right? Yeah, what are some things that you, that you like to offer, usually around this.

Deborah: 41:02

There are a few things that I offer. I think meditation can be really helpful. Not everybody wants to sit and do meditation. You can do walking meditations, you can do guided meditations there, you know, but I do. I do feel like that can be really helpful. I feel like journaling is super helpful and also, just even if you're not meditating but you're focused on your breath and moments of feeling a lot of anxiety, just focus on the breath as you're walking down the street, as you're eating your lunch, you know, and being really mindful. Sometimes, just that like slowing down can be like a meditation as well.

Deborah: 41:45

And something that I offer to a lot of my clients is just that somatic practice of, just okay, this feeling is coming up for you, what let's you know? I invite you to close your eyes and just put your attention on where in your body do you feel it? Because every time we feel an emotion, there's actually a corresponding physiological sensation. Right, a sensation in the body that we feel what? And just get curious about it. Don't you have to make it go away, you don't have to make it stay. Let it do whatever it's going to do and get curious about it. Is it hot, is it cold. Is it big, is it small? Is it tight? Is it attention? You know what is it and to just for five minutes keep your attention on there, on it, send your breath to it, explore it with some curiosity.

Emma: 42:32

Love it.

Deborah: 42:33

And that's something that we do together and that they can then do on their own when things come up for them.

Emma: 42:39

Love it, and I'm gonna add that sometimes people have feelings come up, but they don't even know that they have feelings come up, yeah, right. So I like people who are just very, like stoic all the time, which is very, or they just blow their top. Eventually they're blowing their top, right, right. And so what I would like to add to everything that you just said, which was so beautiful, is to make it your business, if you may, to check in throughout the day, right. So, even if you're not to wait until the feelings come up to feel them, like every soul from like, okay, how am I doing? Right, right, just kind of check in, like, oh, I have feelings, right, what's going on? Right, I'm actually freaking out right now. I'm actually anxious right now. I'm actually something right now. Well, I have a pounding in my chest. Oh, interesting, I didn't even realize, right, that's right, what is?

Deborah: 43:30

Yeah.

Emma: 43:32

And so, even if we're not aware that, if we don't have the feelings to bring our awareness to, but to check in so that we can realize that we're having feelings.

Deborah: 43:38

Right or something. The other way around too, that's right. I had a teacher once who gave us an exercise, well a sort of instruction, to take a whole bunch of like yellow stickies and write like maybe 20, right, breathe on all of them and put them around the house, like put them on the inside of your refrigerator and inside of a cabinet, or every time you saw it you stop and you take a breath, and that was kind of a great way. Oh, I didn't even realize I was having these thoughts that were then having. I didn't it's because I stopped in the middle of the thought that I didn't even know I was having that I noticed also what I was feeling. It's kind of a great way to sort of stop you in your tracks. And every time you see it, the check in.

Emma: 44:22

That is so beautiful. Sometimes we don't even know that we're holding our breath.

Deborah: 44:26

Well, that too right.

Emma: 44:28

So that is so good, because you know, if you're midthought and you're in your ruminating or you're pondering something or whatever, you're working through something in your head, and you just go into the motions and you come across, that breath is sticky and they're like, yeah, oh, wow, I was holding my breath because I was thinking about this thing. Right, that's right.

Deborah: 44:46

And there was a, there was a time when I was going through a lot of my really difficult changes. There was one particular time where the anxiety was so high. It was so high. The only tool I could access was the breath. Yeah, I couldn't really even do anything else, and if the other tools, like I, couldn't put the breath I was focusing on and I was noticing that even when I would try to take a breath, the breath was very shallow. I couldn't, I couldn't get it to go deeper and I just noticed it.

Deborah: 45:15

I just said OK, that's interesting. I'm breathing. My breath is really shallow. I'm trying to breathe in deeply and it's not. I'm not able to make it. That's interesting. Ok, keep breathing. You know, that was the only way I could get myself through that time.

Emma: 45:30

Wow, I love that. Thank you for sharing. It's so interesting because, yeah, we, he has a time we're not not aware, we just in survival mode, like when we just take that pause that even just breathing was even hard, right, and just bringing awareness to breathing. Oh, my breathing is shallow. Ok, it's OK. Let me give myself some love and compassion.

Deborah: 45:51

That's right, that's probably what I'm doing next. That's right.

Emma: 45:54

But so how can I just be kind to myself? I'm not going to judge that I can't even breathe, right?

Deborah: 46:00

Right, right. That wouldn't have been helpful for me. Right Right.

Emma: 46:05

We beat ourselves for like not being perfect and not doing more or better or this or that or faster or whatever other things. So back right ahead. You want to say more about compassion. That was really. It feels like a good way.

Deborah: 46:17

Yeah well, I mean, that's the, that's the key, right? Like, how can you? You know we're all about? Oh, I'm so giving to other people and I'm very compassionate, but I don't give it to myself. And actually you can't really fully give it to other people if you're not giving it to yourself. That's right. Often, the things that we don't like in somebody else or are annoyed by in somebody else that we don't really understand why we're so annoyed by it, those are the things that we don't like in ourselves. We may not have it to the extent that that person does, but that little bit that we do have, we don't like it. If we can cultivate that kind of compassion and love and kindness toward ourselves, then we're able to be more compassionate and loving and kind toward other people.

Emma: 47:13

Yes, yes.

Deborah: 47:15

It all goes back to the feelings. How can I acknowledge what's going on for me, what I feel, and it's really hard to feel that.

Emma: 47:28

And having compassion for that. Okay, yes, it is hard, that's right. Then it's being here to the best that I can right now, and that's good enough, right.

Deborah: 47:36

I'm doing the best that I can and it is really hard and I'm sorry that it's so hard. I really see that it's hard and it's a tough thing to go through. You say to that other part of yourself I'm so sorry that you're going through this, sorry, yeah, having that one back right.

Emma: 47:55

What a concept.

Deborah: 47:56

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Emma: 47:59

Yeah, lovely. So what is the key from here? Right? So now we went through acknowledging our feelings, understanding that changes, heart transitions that are hard, having practices to get in touch with the feelings, to be in with the feelings, honoring ourselves, getting in touch with intuition. From all of that we get information about what is right or not right for me, or maybe what is the next thing or how should I proceed from here, like whether there's information in the feelings. So now what? What is the? How do we make progress? How do we actually create the change? What happens next?

Deborah: 48:37

Right. Well, I mean, that's the arc of a session and the arc of the process, right, and the end of every session is action. What step can I take right now? And that's going to be different for everybody, I mean for somebody, for somebody who's very, very action-oriented and is doing so much that they actually can't hear their intuition or their inner voice, or they're going to action before they've actually even processed what's going on for them and they're just doing, doing, doing and exhausted, and in all different directions at once.

Deborah: 49:16

The action might be to slow down very nice the action might be to meditate or journal or breathe for five minutes a day or sit in silence or have a bath or have a cup of tea, where you're just focused on that cup of tea.

Deborah: 49:32

You know that might be the action for somebody. For somebody else it might be. I want, I want you to do this, this process of getting in touch with your emotions, and try you know, either when it comes up or just try it once a day, and there may be very concrete things that are actions as well. Right, so I'm going to do this meditation or I'm going to journal, or I'm going to write a letter to my fear, or I'm going to whatever. It is right, I'm going to do that thing, and I also need to make sure to get ABC done this week or A done this week.

Emma: 50:11

I'm just saying that very nice, good. So I'm hearing two things in there, Deborah beautifully said. One is this this is my therapist hat coming in right now. Good. So the first one is hmm, let me take an action step towards my well being, my resilience, my mental health, my feeling better, my taking care, my me right. That's right.

Emma: 50:34

The meditation, the breathing, the just focusing, the being in the moment. Just just stop all the noise and all the jumbling around and breathe and slow down, just nourish compassion. That's part one. Part two is take actionable step stores creating the change that you're facing. That's right. If you're moving, if you're getting divorced or if you're getting married or whatever the thing is, you're looking for a job or your job.

Emma: 51:05

Whatever the thing is that you're dealing with, what is a practical action that I could take to make a dent in the big thing that's scaring?

Deborah: 51:13

Me or throwing me off. That's right.

Emma: 51:14

Deal with me. It's part one. Part two deal with the thing I love it.

Deborah: 51:20

That's right, yeah, okay. Very good, because you have to work on both at the same time, right, totally, totally. And you have to apply what you're learning to your life and to your relationships and to moving forward. Right, yeah, otherwise, what's the what's?

Emma: 51:35

The point. That's right. Then you're just talking and not creating change. That's right. And the change is kicking your butt? Yeah, the change is changing. The change is changing. Is it not with you on board that she's just dragging?

Deborah: 51:49

Right? Yeah, what is it? Either, I don't know. There's an expression on that I can't remember. It's like if you're going to either get dragged, either I'm going to take the step or I'm going to get dragged right, something like that.

Emma: 52:00

Right, yeah, exactly for sure. Okay, beautiful. Any other thoughts about people who manage transitions and big changes, any any less sprinkles of wisdom that you want to share in parts for for the people that are listening, well, I think that the I think the piece about compassion for yourself is really important.

Deborah: 52:26

Have patience with yourself, have compassion for yourself and take the steps, and even if you're afraid, take the steps. That's what courage is right. So you need to get through this. You're going to need courage, you're going to need compassion, you're going to need curiosity. You're going to need all those great C words, right?

Emma: 52:49

I love that - courage, compassion, curiosity, love curiosity.

Deborah: 52:55

Yeah, they're probably more good communication right, All of those things to just to, to be good to yourself, be kind to yourself and and and know that this is getting you to the, to the place you need to be, and that right now, where you are in the midst of it and all the mess and the muck is actually where you need to be.

Emma: 53:21

Yes, well, so I'm going to throw in another C award in there, and that is care. Yes, so take care of yourself and and in that, caring for okay. Yes, here I'm supposed to, I'm supposed to be here. Look how you just said that it's for me. It's not happening to me.

Deborah: 53:39

That's right.

Emma: 53:40

And in being with that and finding the blessings in the upheaval and in the chaos, then that's where the evolution, the change, you know, the good stuff happens. That's right.

Deborah: 53:51

And even if you can't see the blessings right now, that's the trust. There are blessings. I don't know what they are, it certainly doesn't seem like it right now, I can't even imagine what they might be, but I'm going to trust that they're there and they're going to be on the other side.

Emma: 54:05

That's what you said much earlier I love that, that's right, thank you so much, Deborah, for all these nuggets of wisdom and for sharing the process of change and transition that people might experience and how, what they could do to have their own back right. This is so nice and gentle. That's right, when people usually just throw it.

Deborah: 54:27

Yeah, push themselves through it. That's right. Yeah Well, thank you for having me on your show and for all of your really thoughtful questions.

Emma: 54:36

My pleasure. It's been really nice and so I have some places where people could connect with you, some of your social media and your websites, so people could find you if they're interested in working with you or checking out what they have to offer Great. And I know that your gift is a 30 to 45 minute coaching consult. That's right. So, if they want to just check you out and have some fun time with you. Yeah.

Deborah: 54:57

Talk about what they're going through and see how coaching might help them.

Emma: 55:01

Happy to do that, very nice. So thank you so much for that generous offer and thank you so much for being here today. You're lovely, your energy your compassion and your love comes right through, so I really appreciate you, thank you so much.

Deborah: 55:14

Thank you Emma.

Emma: 55:15

You're welcome. So, and for the listeners, until the next one, bye.