Successful Relationship with Emma

Parenting Neurodivergent Kids: Tantrums, Parenting Styles, and Self-regulation w/ Polina Shkadron (Pt1) (Ep. 17)

• Emma Viglucci • Episode 17

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Is there chaos in your home because of tantrums, meltdowns, acting out, or disobedience from your child? Is your child neurodivergent? Have they been diagnosed with ADHD, autism, or other diagnoses on the spectrum? 

Being a parent is one of the most rewarding roles in this human experience, and one of the most challenging ones. It is a huge responsibility to create and raise another human being… The role brings with it inherent challenges and demands, and it does even more so when we have children with special needs of some sort.  

But because the role is demanding and because our child might have demanding needs, it doesn’t mean we have to struggle with it and that our family life has to suffer as a result. We can learn parenting and relationship skills, and we can totally learn how to parent children with special needs in a way that supports them and the whole family. 

In today’s episode I’m excited to have a super-rich conversation with Polina Shkadron, a Play Therapist, about parenting neurodivergent children. Our conversation was so good, it became a 2-part episode. In today’s part, we cover the importance of play for the child’s growth, development and wellbeing and utilizing play dynamics in the parent-child relationship. We also cover why children have tantrums and how to manage them, and the importance of self-regulation.  


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🌟ABOUT OUR GUEST:

Polina Shkadron is a trauma-informed speech-language pathologist, family communication and feeding expert specializing in families living with Autism, ADHD, language and literacy difficulties. She earned her Master of Arts degree in Speech-Language Pathology from CUNY Queens College where she has held the position of Adjunct Lecturer for 7 years, and her Master of Science degree in Nutrition Education from American University.  Polina's helps parents of neurodivergent kids to "Raise Differently" and let go of the shame and deficit-focus that often comes with traditional parenting and some therapeutic models.

You can find her at:  PlayToLearnConsulting.com.

Find her also here:  LinkedIn | Facebook | Instagram 

E-Book - 7 Reasons you & your neurodivergent kids experience anxiety & overwhelm


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🌟MORE ON THIS EPISODE:

Watch the YouTube Video! 

More about the podcast on our Podcast Page

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DISCLAIMER: This content is meant to support your Journey and not as a replacement for professional assistance. Additionally, the ideas and resources provides by our guests are their ideas and recommendations alone and not necessarily a reflection of the host’s.



Emma Viglucci:

Hello and welcome to another episode. I am so excited for today's guest, Paulina. She is going to hook us up with all things about parenting. So this is a new topic that I'm bringing to you guys. Hopefully we will cover it from all the angles that will serve you. It's going to be an amazing conversation. We're going to talk about all the different ways that your child gets on your nerves and when things go south in the home, when there are things that are happening and you're like what is my child doing right now? And we will cover all the different areas of why that happens, how to deal with it and also how to relate with your partner at the same time so that it doesn't become like a major situation going on in the home. So we're going to have that amazing conversation and stay tuned, You're in for a treat. Hello and welcome. I am so excited for today's guest. I'm going to read her bio and then we'll say hello to Paulina.

Emma Viglucci:

So Paulina is a trauma-informed speech-language pathologist, family communication and feeding expert, specializing in families living with autism, ADHD, language and literacy difficulties. She has a whole spectrum. She earned her master's of arts degree in speech language pathology from CUNY Queens College, where she has held a position of adjunct lecturer for seven years. She also has a master's of science degree in nutrition education from American University, which has transformed the feeding therapy aspect of her practice. Paulina's mission is to educate parents of neurodivergent kids to raise differently and let go of the shame and deficit focus that often comes with traditional parenting in some therapeutic models. This is going to be a rich conversation, Hi Paulina. How are you? Hi Emma?

Polina Shkadron :

I'm doing well, yes.

Emma Viglucci:

Very excited, yes, and can I just tell the audience that I came across you because I attended one of your trainings and it was super, super, duper rich. I learned a ton of things and reinforced a ton of things that I already knew, but, man, it took it to the next level. So I was like I have to have her come and hook the audience up as well. Very good presenter. Yes, very good.

Polina Shkadron :

Thank you. Why don't we jump right?

Emma Viglucci:

in Polly. Why don't we just go for it, right? So tell us a little bit about one are the situations that usually show up that parents would seek this kind of therapy, and maybe you can say a little bit about the therapy that you do? So you know just kind of. So they have a context, a picture of you know. What do you do, what do you help and why would they need you?

Polina Shkadron :

Like what's going on in their home, like, oh yes, I might need that kind of thing so it's interesting because whenever somebody hears speech language pathology, they have a preconceived notion of what that is, and when we start getting deeper into a discovery call, I usually get the feedback of I had no idea that this is what you do and that this is the focus on emotional regulation first and foremost. And what I like to tell families is I give them a quick explanation of what it is that the word speech means and what languages and the fact that I specialize in the language aspect of it, which comes with just not just knowledge of words. It also comes with what happens when we use certain words and how does our brain interpret that. And then it becomes with, especially for neurodivergent kids I specialize in autism and ADHD when there are certain words that are coming into their brains, the way that they are interpreting it and the way that it's landing for them is very different because they're wired differently. So when we can change how we use words and how we use language, then the reaction changes.

Polina Shkadron :

So it's usually that parents come in now, more so with there's a behavior problem. You know, there's like hitting or kicking or they're not listening. One of my favorites is they're choosing not to listen and I go okay. Well, what is choosing not to listen? Look like Well, they're ignoring me. I go okay. Are you talking at them? Like, what do you mean by ignoring? Because when you're saying ignoring and your child is not paying attention to you, to attend is an executive function skill, and if you're asking them to do something that they don't have the capacity to do now everybody's frustrated.

Emma Viglucci:

Right, and it's as simple as how you're speaking, even right. So I mean, there's going to be a lot of other things that we can offer here, but just from what you just said, yeah, we don't pay attention, right, like we think that they're just on the same page with us and we're just kind of dragging them along sometimes, like, come on, come on, come on, do this, do that right. So I hear this from parents all the time, like they're just dictating instructions for the kids to do all, go, do all these things right, and they're not listening, they're not paying attention, they're not carrying through or they're being extremely disrespectful, like, even to like, and they're doing this kind of thing. So the parents it's like okay, what's going on, right? So, yeah, very good. So now, what is your primary way of working with kids and families? I know that your website and the work that you've shared, that you've shared that I know that you do is a lot, a lot of play. So can you say more about that and is there more to it?

Polina Shkadron :

definitely so play is not just for toddlers. You know, play is designed to start in infancy and go, take you all the way through adolescence and into your adulthood and I think sometimes that's really lost because adults also need their own version of play to then be able to connect to how kids play, to then be able to connect to how kids play, and there are so many different levels of play and play dynamics and people often ask well, it's not something that can be measured right, like how do you put it on a chart or a graph so I can see progress? And it's more qualitative. It's the quality and the richness of the play experience that I look for and there are certain developmental domains within play and it's how you start with those basic problem solving skills and then get to higher levels of like knowledge and learning and theory of mind, and that's all within. Within play.

Polina Shkadron :

You can't reach, you can't go meta, and it's something that I, I know, I talk about often.

Polina Shkadron :

You can't go meta, which is thinking outside of yourself and the respect piece that you said right, and the respect piece that you said right In order to understand what that's really like and to gain a sense of, well, what does disrespectful even mean you have to have insight into how your actions affect other people. And then when you do act a certain way or you say something that, how can it be perceived or misperceived? That's a much higher level skill that some adults don't have, right. So the expectation then it becomes a huge expectation gap for families. And then families struggle because they have this expectation that their five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 year old is going to act a certain way and this is what the child needs to do. And I'm coming and saying well, how are you responding as the adult? Are you giving them the opportunity to really figure out what's going on for them, instead of coming in and I'm going to fix it and tell you what to do?

Emma Viglucci:

Yes, yeah.

Polina Shkadron :

Very good. There's a lot more to play than just a toy. And I also say this to parents all the time like, yes, I have resources and toys at the office, and yet the toy doesn't matter. Like the object doesn't matter, it can be a paper cup or a cardboard box, right, it doesn't matter, it's the intention behind it that matters. It's like what is the child coming in with, what ideas do they have and how can they show me what their intention is? And it's like a dance. It's very much that back and forth process and I had a parent ask me. A new parent asked me in session yesterday as, like she was really observing our play, serving our play. She goes well, how do you know when to push a little and to encourage, and then how do you know when to pull back? Like, how do you actually know? And it's a skill, like I've been doing this for 15 years, that's how I know, so I can show you and I can definitely teach you, because that's really the goal.

Polina Shkadron :

Therapy isn't something that's done to kids, right, therapy doesn't happen in a bubble. It's more like the parents become an extension of me and then what happens really interestingly for the kids is that they start using the same language that we use in therapy. They start talking about their ideas and the thoughts that they have in mind and how they then actually have disagreements that are constructive, instead of having a meltdown moment. Even though those meltdown moments are going to happen, it's not the work isn't eliminating them, because we're going to have frustration, and it's more about how do I handle it. How do I know when to then advocate for myself and seek support?

Polina Shkadron :

Very specifically, to let somebody know I'm at capacity. Today I need you to take care of something that seems really simple. I don't have enough in me to do it today, and it's the same thing for couples also, and when parents co-parent, right Somebody. We're not built to have the same capacity every single day. I said the same thing to the mom I go, you know, when your phone gets overheated and it's actually dangerous to have it heat up to that level and the phone itself will tell you to put it down and let it cool off. Go, your child also needs a cool off period. I love it, and so do you. Yes.

Emma Viglucci:

And I love that you brought in the couple because, yeah, this is how partners can support each other. They don't both need to be involved. We could talk more about that as we go. But also in that moment when it gets tapped out or really starts getting frustrated or trigger themselves, it's okay to not continue Like you could have your partner support you and we maybe talk about that, how to do that efficiently, so there's less chaos and escalation in the family. But that was beautiful. So play is very significant. It's not just moving pieces around on a board or playing with dollies and having them drink tea. There's so much more stuff going on right. So they are bringing in, they're showing their level of development, they're showing if they're thinking. They're showing like you tell me, like what are you seeing through play? That parents so parents know how important play is.

Polina Shkadron :

Yeah. So I'm looking at levels of sophistication, right, and I'm looking at is it coming down to cause and effect play, because that's also important and it needs to happen. Is it, then, just physical play? That's part of development too, that what happens when, what it looks like when a child is out of ideas, and that's something that is really important to pinpoint. So parents often say, well, all of a sudden and I love the all of a sudden, I go, really. Is it really all of a sudden that it's like well, all of a sudden, I go, really, is it really all of a sudden that it's like, well, all of a sudden they get silly, they go, okay, and then they tend to use that term of oh, you're being so silly, right? So then you're attributing silly to their state of being. So now the child is a silly child and I'm looking at it and I'm going. So that silliness that you're seeing, that's dysregulation. And when you pinpoint it and you go, do you notice when exactly it happens? It's when the challenge is too big or when the child doesn't know how to continue the play, because they haven't had enough experience to take one idea and make it last, and then ideas then end all of a sudden and sometimes all of a sudden for younger kids looks like they're building, they're playing with magnets and then all of a sudden they crash the tower. That all of a sudden means I don't know what else to do. Right, I don't know where else to take this. And then other times it looks like I've had kids just run away, where the play becomes so complex and now there's language involved, and the complexity I'm talking about is now we're taking on the roles of the characters, and when you become the character, then it's also thinking. Thinking becomes multi-causal. Right, it's how do I set, how do I become a character and also pull back so that I'm the character and myself at the same time? So when I become a character and also pull back so that I'm the character and myself at the same time, so when I become a character and I wreck things as characters do, and I get this shock reaction, I go I didn't, that wasn't me, that was, that was the dinosaur. I don't know, I don't know what happened, like, how do we handle that kind of an obstacle? And it usually starts with that's where you see the, the meltdowns or the tantrums, however you want to call them, because it's the where it comes from, is the unexpected.

Polina Shkadron :

And often I get either feedback from you know, social media or parents asking, well, shouldn't right, the shouldn't. Like shouldn't the kids be ready for the world? I go, okay, three, like the world is going to tell them no all the time. I go great, you'd also. Five, like chronologically right.

Polina Shkadron :

And we really have to consider that social emotional development, because a chronological five-year-old can also be social, emotionally at other level. So there's this expectation of they're so smart, shouldn't they know and I'm going right, they have certain capacities. Shouldn't they know, and I'm going right, they have certain capacities. What about the others? So that's one of the toughest, I think, for parents. When kids have a lot of sophisticated language and they're very verbal and they know that there's high intelligence and they go well, how come they can't handle the smallest change, like why is it that things just have to be the same? And my feedback is well, what is it like for you when I completely change your entire day? Like yeah, we don't like routine too. You like routine too.

Polina Shkadron :

What happens when you're on your way to the office and all of a sudden there is a car accident or all of a sudden there's a traffic jam and the lane is closed. The first thing you do is you're going to get really dysregulated, like what's going on? How come this? This is happening? And the best way actually that I like to. People watch at airports. People get dysregulated at airports all the time. Oh yeah, where it's like it's not the attendant's fault that the plane is late, right, like I understand that you have a connecting flight, I might have one also and you going off on this attendant to ask her this is where I need to go. How come the plane is late? I'm not sure if that's really going to get you an answer. So that is a dysregulated adult who can. Then let's say that dysregulated adult also meets a dysregulated child. That is a volcanic eruption waiting to happen. There is no way that a adult who is dysregulated to such a degree can also regulate a child at the same time.

Emma Viglucci:

Excellent, yes, absolutely. So let's go back for a second to the play thing and then we'll continue with this dysregulation conversation. I love that. So in play, some of the things are the sophistication how many ideas do they have? Can they take the idea to the next level? Can they take on characters and can they differentiate that and hold on to different things at the same time? So there's a lot of different aspects there that most parents are not aware of, that this is what play is and was involved, and that the more that that's done and that the more that it gets developed, that the child is doing better or developing, and that when you see the meltdowns or the little change and the kid throws a tantrum or they start saying no and we could talk about that too Then these are just examples of they hit a wall to some degree and helping them.

Emma Viglucci:

Maybe we could talk about that too. How do we get past that, as opposed to calling them silly and now they don't understand what's going on for them, and that they could get past that. Now they're just silly. So weird associations are happening, right.

Emma Viglucci:

So we think that we're the best parents oh you're so silly, we think it's cute, but what are we doing right? Very interesting. So the message it starts really early, even like in the most innocuous ways, Messaging about self, about feelings, about body, about all the things. So very interesting. So then that leads us more into the self-regulation and dysregulation. If the parent starts getting agitated when that's happening, the child's already agitated because they hit a wall in terms of what they could do. Now the parent starts getting triggered and agitated themselves because the child's acting out or whatever they're doing Right.

Polina Shkadron :

So now what? So? Now what? So it's a great question.

Polina Shkadron :

Sometimes it depends, because what I am not for is putting a child in some kind of timeout or going well, like I, because what you're saying is I've had enough of your nonsense, right, and it's not nonsense where it's like my nervous system cannot handle your nervous system, so I'm going to put you in timeout so that your little nervous system can figure it out by itself.

Polina Shkadron :

Like that is harsh and that's what's happening, right, that's what the timeouts are. Yes, it's like my adult nervous system doesn't have enough capacity for you and your little nervous system doesn't have enough experience to you. And your little nervous system doesn't have enough experience to figure out what to do with the struggle and I'm going to leave you to it on your own anyway. And then the comment is when you're ready, then you can talk to me, which means that now our relationship has a condition and I will only show up for you when you behave Right. And then, when relationships become conditional, then it's dangerous when relationships are based on that kind of a condition, you know just as you said that, I'm thinking I could just hear parents and like, yeah, what's wrong with that?

Emma Viglucci:

They should be respectful, they should listen, should be conditional, they should behave, they shouldn be conditional, they should behave, they shouldn't have to do all these things. Right, but what you just said, oh, that's really like ooh right and I'm hearing it from a therapist place. Of course, I'm not sure if it was for the audience. Hopefully they could hear that that that condition has all kinds of messaging around that, and that's why we're in therapy as adults, we're doing all kinds of deconditioning. Now, right, right, yeah, so go right ahead. What are we?

Polina Shkadron :

going to say, because it also comes from the way that parents were parented themselves, right, and I'm very comfortable telling parents like, yes, I have over 15 years of experience working with kids. I don't have to be a parent myself, right, I 15 years of experience working with kids. I don't have to be a parent myself, right, I have been a child, right, and continue to be a child of parents, and I also know what it's like to have been parented. And then the more insight that you gain, right, therapeutically, there's a reason that I could connect to very specific kids Because you can also like see a little bit of yourself in what's going on in them, and that's the hardest part for parents to notice, where what's happening is a reflection of something that's going on for you.

Polina Shkadron :

So when there's talk back, right, when kids go, especially like I hate you, right, you're the worst, the knee jerk reaction is I do everything for you, right. Well, you're a parent, yes, that's your job, I take you, that's your job. Or it's like you're so ungrateful, right, I take you everywhere. Like remember all the things that, all the places that I take you to, and then everywhere. Like, remember all the things that, all the places that I take you to. And then it becomes if you don't behave, we're never going again, right? So it's this all of a sudden reminder, and you're holding your parenting over the child's head, saying, oh, I do all of these things for you. Yes, you're the parent, it's your role. You also don't have to prove. And you're the parent, it's your role. You also don't have to prove. And you're the adult? And you also don't have to constantly prove that you're in charge, because then that comes to like Can you?

Polina Shkadron :

say that again please, yes, you don't have to. You're already in charge. You don't have to constantly prove that you're in charge. Wow, yes, people are going to love that You're in charge.

Polina Shkadron :

Wow, yes, people are going to love that, but it's coming from a place of well, like then, what Right? Like how do I get them to stop or how do I get them to listen. And it's less about how do I get them to stop and more about like how do I stay regulated in that moment, and the hardest thing is, how do I not take it personally? And I have parents ask me that all the time how come is it that kids are telling you, like I had a six-year-old become like really dysregulated because the challenge was tough, like what we were doing was harder for her. And she threw a block at me and I go okay, well, it looks like the blocks stay on the floor right Versus, like you're not allowed to throw. And then she went into a very interesting monologue of my mom doesn't like you and I like my mom more, I don't want to be here anymore. And then it becomes you're not pretty, I don't like your shirt, like all of these things whatever she could, whatever she could come up with.

Polina Shkadron :

And then you know, I let the monologue go and I'm still sitting there with her and then when she pauses to, you have to find that opening right, that pause. So she pauses and really tunes into my reaction and my response is, yeah, this was really hard. And then the other part is, I hear it in what you're telling me. What you're actually telling me is what we are figuring out today You're not really sure about. So I get it. This was a really this was a tough one, okay, so it's really about, like, the interpretation. And mom asked me she goes, all the things she said to you, like shouldn't you make her apologize, right? Shouldn't you tell her that she has to be sorry? And I go for what?

Emma Viglucci:

for being dysregulated oh my goodness so good, pauline so good you know. Can I just tell you that little segment there? It's massively impactful because parents can't tolerate children being disrespectful to adults and not to themselves.

Emma Viglucci:

And I hate you and you look ugly and whatever all these things. Are you kidding, right? And when they say to other people, that's shameful for the parent, like, oh my gosh, my kid has been a rat, right? So all these things come up and what you just role model. They are not only for the kid but for the parent. Oh my goodness, right, massive, and I love that. If people have a hard time understanding how to do that or what that was, what I'm hearing is don't listen to the words. It's not the words. What is happening? Right, the child is dysregulated. They're acting out, they're just I don't even know what to call it Like meltdown I think you used before. Right, they're just having a moment. It's not the words. The words are just telling you that they're dysregulated. They can't say I'm dysregulated, I don't feel so good, I don't know how to do this, right. So they're just going to come out with anything that they could think of to change the moment. But if we stay in the moment, right.

Polina Shkadron :

And we address the moment, because then that's how you build that self-awareness, and it can. It can be built. It doesn't just all of a sudden start when I'm working with a team. Right, it's not that, oh, we're going to start building self-awareness at 12. No, no, we're going to start building it as soon as possible.

Polina Shkadron :

Right, right, Of course we're going to start building it soon enough, because then there's a recognition and when kids really begin to understand like something's going on internally and that's the reason that like this is what I'm doing. I had a younger child also become. It's such a great example of self-awareness where the dysregulation came because we were building something separately. I had like some kind of like magnetic tower going. He had one, and there are so many different little components because he also has a hard time building. His language is actually pretty sophisticated. It's a dual diagnosis of ADHD and autism and there's also a like that emotional dysregulation component. So what happened and this is going to get just a little technical, because in play there's also a motor planning piece Sometimes kids get stuck in play because of the way that, like, the brain is sending messages to the body to move and they can get stuck in one place.

Polina Shkadron :

So what that looks like is either only building towers up and not out right, or doing what it looks like is like well, they're doing the same thing over and over again. I go right, let's take a look at how their body is moving. Are they're actually walking around that train track and figuring out how it appears from different sides, or are they just static and sitting? So what happens, right? So there's like, again, there's so much more that I'm looking for inside the play. So what happens with this little guy is not only does he have a hard time building, right, my building was going up faster than his and he knocked him. Oh, no, right, so he knocked mine over. He's like we're not doing this anymore, or or I don't like what you're doing. I go, oh, it looks like our ideas are different. I'm still working really hard on putting my castle, or whatever it was, together. And then he crashed it again. He was, like you're not doing this, I'm taking these like they're little magnetic squares. I'm taking these like that's not the this. I'm taking these like I'm taking these like they're little magnetic squares. I'm taking these like that's, that's not the idea.

Polina Shkadron :

And then we went into I don't like your idea, like you're, like you're ruining things for me. I go, oh, so it's, it goes back to something's hard right now. So we, we started moving things to to the side and then, um, uh, he wanted to see what would happen, like I know him and his like train of thought. So then the kicking and the punching came out where, like the kick came to see my reaction, like the punch came to see my reaction. And for me it's not that you know, I'm a punching bag, which you know, regardless of that. So I like, I move back slightly and I go.

Polina Shkadron :

This is always like at their level. So I'm not standing over the child and talking from above. I'm still at his level and I'm going. You know, I get the kicking and I'm going to let you know that I'm still going to be right here, meaning like, as you're struggling, as you're going to get, I'm still going to be here for you. And I said we're going to figure this out together. I get that this is hard and it took. I want to say I thought it was going to take longer, maybe five minutes, not even. And then he paused and he goes. I want to tell you the reason that I'm acting weird Wow. And I said in my mind I was like what?

Polina Shkadron :

was that and I go oh, what do you mean by weird? He goes, you know, I feel like like something's going on and he goes. You know, I feel like like something's going on and he goes. Maybe I'm getting a cold.

Polina Shkadron :

Oh, I go like, hold on that kind of like introspection and the fact that I reacted to you because something is going on for me, I'm dys, dysregulated, I'm uncomfortable, and he goes. I just I don't know what that was about. Wow, I was like, yeah, it sounds like something's going on for your body and you needed me to be here for you, right? So it's not about him saying that he's never coming back or the fact that, like he's gonna kick me out or he's gonna physically kick me, like it took and this also this kind of introspection and the kind of relationship that we've built like it took, it took time. It's not a one week kind of situation, right, it's. It's it's been. It's been months that we've been like figuring out some of the difficulties and some of the struggles. And then I said, you know, it looks like we were here together and we figured out the problem that we were having, and he goes yeah, I guess so that we were having, and he goes yeah, I guess so. And as soon as he, you know like we left the. This is one of those times where it's just like him and I in therapy a lot of the times, like the parents do come in and it's very client specific. So for him it's just more beneficial for us to reflect afterward.

Polina Shkadron :

So he came out and the first thing he told mom is I was being, I was acting kind of weird. And he said he's like you know, I kicked Polina and like I threw things. And then I think it's because I was, and what happened before was that he took a nap and he was sweating and mom was like I don't know if he's coming down with something. And we know that when the body is not feeling well, it takes all of our resources then to help it to feel better. So the nervous system doesn't have enough resources to handle challenges.

Polina Shkadron :

And he was like, yeah, I was just, it was something weird that happened. And I go yeah, and it looks like we figured it out Right. So I didn't distract him from being uncomfortable, right, I didn't leave him to handle his own discomfort, to go, stop kicking me or else I'm going to remove myself, right, I planted myself there and go, I'm still here for you, pretty much no matter what. Like we are still going to be in this space together, like we're going to figure this out. And we came out on the other side to like figure it out and he left going oh, I guess we can. We can keep going with the idea the next time I come. Like great.

Emma Viglucci:

Oh, let's do it. You know what I love about that. Like some people might think, like what the heck does that mean to regulate the kid, for me to regulate, for me to self-regulate, for me to help the kids regulate. You know the kids acting like really the kick in me, like what you know. But I love the language that you use as very child appropriate. Oh, we figured it out. So what you're saying is like oh, we regulated, yes, Right.

Emma Viglucci:

And so I stood here until your nervous system calmed down. I didn't agitate it more. I didn't agitate it more. I didn't agitate myself more. I didn't create. I didn't create any anything weird. I didn't give you any weird messages about you yourself, your state, your body, anything like that. I didn't rapture our connection. I stayed planted. I moved myself back. Of course I'm not going to be in danger or whatever. I mean, I don't know how much damage a kid could do, but I'd move myself back a little bit. Right, I moved myself. Well, yeah, I'm sure they could do damage, but so I moved myself back a little bit, right, so I'm not going to be that punching bag per se, but I give the message. You can count on me. That attachment is there the security, is there right? And in that stability, in the security there, that regulation happens. And then the language of of. We figured it out oh, gold, yes.

Polina Shkadron :

And then the security that you mentioned. That's also because I'm secure in my strategy and my approach and that's like the most important thing, that I work to teach parents, because when kids come into therapy I go. It's a whole family dynamic. That's right. I need you on board and you let me know. Let's say this is too much for you and you're looking for, you're looking, you could be looking for a different approach, and I've had that. Also. You might be looking for something that has consequences, that is more like behavior based, and you tested out this play nonsense, as you call it and it doesn't work for you and that's okay. It's not for everybody because it's so much harder it really is. It's so much harder to go. I am in it and we're going to figure it out and I'm going to be open enough to tell you that you're right.

Polina Shkadron :

I'm not secure in my own parenting style, and the other part of it is what I hear from parents often. Well, what about the social norms, right? Like, what are other people going to think if I don't give my child a consequence when they're throwing down in the middle of the street, like, and that's the, what are other people going to think? It's more. That's where your own security comes in. Oh, when relatives go, this is what you should be doing, right, like, how could you not? Right like it, extended family, right, how could you not, like, tell her that she's punished? Like, how could you not?

Polina Shkadron :

And parents don't say, well, what do I say? And I go? You respond with thanks. So much for your input. We're doing things a little differently, totally right, because no one, no one's really expecting that when somebody's coming at you with any kind of negative comment. They're not. They're expecting that in return. What they're not expecting is for you to take it in and turn it on them to go. Oh, I appreciate your, yeah, I appreciate it, I go. I appreciate your insight. We got this handled. We're doing something different than what you expect. I get that. This is what's helpful for us as a family.

Emma Viglucci:

Yep, beautiful. Thank you very much. That's right, a hundred percent. People back off when they see their results right. The kid comes around and then then the kid regulated as opposed to like they're in time out. Now there's all this drama, everybody's involved, all this. You know they're waiting for the kids to come out of time out or whatever all the things that people are doing right, and I mean when they see that it works, then it's easier to manage that criticism or observations or feedback or whatever so so. So hanging in there is helpful, because then you get more confident and other people respond better.

Polina Shkadron :

Yes, and then there's also the repair, because I tell parents like no one's, there's no such thing as a perfect parenting style. Like if you're seeking perfection, then that's a fixed mindset. Like it doesn't. It doesn't exist. So you are going to have these blowout. You're going to yell back, of course. You're going to yell back. There's no way that you're not going to. It's the repair that happens afterwards to go. I am so sorry that my words were so loud. Like that's your responsibility Versus you made me yell at you. Right, or like, or I hear things like you're making me feel sad. And then here comes a flip and I go how is your five year old responsible for your emotions? Right, they're not actually making you feel anything. Right, like you're, like you did this, right, you made me mad if you were to be hitting so badly, then I wouldn't be yelling yes, exactly exactly like you did.

Polina Shkadron :

It's as if, like you did this to me right and like for the child is what I didn't. Like I have that much power. Then bat like now the boundaries begin to change. Now, all of a sudden, it's like the child is in charge, like kids don't want to as much as people say. Kids want control. They don't want to be in charge because being in charge means it comes with so much responsibility. They need those guardrails, they need the support to then be able to like push a little to see if it's still there, and then there's a way to still like hold your own and go. I get that. This is what you're asking for. I'm just letting you know that, yes, the rules at home are different than the rules at grandma's. That happens, and now we're asking them to cognitively shift and adjust to different rules in different environments.

Emma Viglucci:

Yes, so that the regulation impacts all the different levels right, cognitive, physical, emotional. So any other thoughts about the different aspects of that so parents understand more what's happening?

Polina Shkadron :

It does. So it does impact everything, especially when you see, like the, what we see most is when kids get physical. What we don't see enough of or pay like really attention to is when kids shut down, even more dangerous than going outward is going inward. When kids are in that frozen, shutdown state, then the I guess preconceived notion is well, now that they're standing still, they're listening to what I have to say and I'm telling you that when the brain is in that frozen state, it's in the mindset of no one sees me. Okay, stay as still as possible, don't move, and then the danger will pass. It's there that they don't hear anything. There's like nothing going through, because their cognitive and their linguistic systems, those are offline, because now it's self-preservation, right, right, so, okay, you yell and you shout out that no, and then they freeze and then you begin your own, you know monologue of all the shoulds and should not, and they're standing still and you think they're listening. They are so terrified standing still and you think they're listening. They are so terrified Nothing's coming through. And then it also what's interestingly enough, a frozen state drains your reserves even more. Right, it is so physically and you're, you know, inside your nervousness. It is so draining to actually be, still when people are attacking you, when there's danger all around, and even after you know like sometimes the, you know the tantrum, like those are tiring. They're not. They're tiring for the adult, they're tiring for the child. You need something. Afterwards it is, it is, and you know your nervous system only has so much to give throughout the day.

Polina Shkadron :

Where the other part is is sometimes on the outside. Kids look like they've recovered and this is another important piece where parents were like, well, you know, in 10 minutes they were fine. I go right on the outside. They were fine. On the inside they're already teetering. They've hit max capacity. So I'm just going to let you know that all the expectations that you thought you had, put those away, because every little challenge is going to bring that rise back up. So, yes, they may look fine. The nervous system hasn't resolved itself yet. Excellent.

Emma Viglucci:

Do you know usually how long it takes to resolve itself, or is that very child specific?

Polina Shkadron :

So it's so interesting. Like people ask that question all the time and I go well, it depends on how much reserves they have and also, if you're looking at it like from a trauma lens, right, sometimes it could take up to the next day to go. I'm steady and then it also depends on are there many more challenges happening during the day? And then it's like what's the cost of that on the nervous system On top of what are you doing to like refuel, like what is that real refuel like? And a lot of the times it's. You know we refuel with food, specific foods though Like that's a whole other conversation. Like there are. It is it really is because we have have to like the refuel happens with like nutrient dense foods like that. That's right. So like that's a refuel for one rest. Rest is a refuel also. And then the relationship is a refuel like play is that refuel just like easy breezy. You know some of the kids I work with. They tend to go toward like drawing or some of them. When the play becomes too tough, they like to write out the alphabet. Right, that's regulating for them, because it's right. So it's like, think about, like, why the numbers in alphabet? Why is that regulating? Because there's a beginning and an end, there's a pattern that's involved. It never changes. And then they found that, like that type of pattern is regulating for them. After having a moment that was like really, really tough. And then others will say, um, I need you to like turn off the lights, like I gotta be. Uh, this is, this is too much. So I'm going to sit in the dark for a bit and I go great, I can, I can sit in the dark with you. Okay, I could sit in the dark with you for, like, for older kids, like I would say, preteen I've had, and because, you know, there's also a trust piece where, like, I know that, like the, the therapy room isn't going to get like tossed over. I've had kids say like, um, I need the space to myself, like, oh, wow, I know you're right outside the door. Um, I just like I can't have you in here and I, I go great. And the other part is parents ask like, well, how long? Right, like you know, are they going to be like, is it five minutes to regulate? Is it 10? And then sometimes, when it's, you know, like toward the end of, let's say, a session where, like, I've been asked to leave the room and I go, great, I got it. And then I say I'm just going to let you know that somebody else is coming when you hear the doorbell. When you hear the doorbell ring, that's how you know that you know somebody else is here. You can definitely wait outside in the waiting room and we leave it matter of fact, right, like I'm just letting you know, know, not like you have five minutes, ten minutes, because, right, what is time? Anyway, it's more, this is some. This is an event that's going to occur, that you're going to hear the doorbell ring. You know kind of going to need the space. You can be here, you could definitely be here, you could just, you know you could come out into the waiting room and do what you need to do. And when that happens, then it's.

Polina Shkadron :

There's also this agency that kids feel, where it's like, oh, I, I'm like responsible for me and I can figure this out. And I've had this happen with um. At that time he was like 10 or 11, where he was like throwing socks at me and I was like, oh, I, I get, I get where this is going. And he had asked me to leave the room. So I left. Within a couple of minutes he came back out and then he goes are you going to tell my dad? And I said tell him what I go. Whatever happened between you and I, that can stay here. And I said that's actually up to you. If you want, let's say like you want to let dad know that you had a hard time, you can let him know. And he's like no, no, I'm good, I go. Okay, I'm good too.

Emma Viglucci:

Lovely, so good. Wow, oh, so much yumminess in there. This is like a foreign language to parents. Wow, oh, so so much yumminess in there. Like this is like a foreign language to parents. Yes, so a little back backstory.

Emma Viglucci:

I'm very much into attachment, parenting and all the different things, right, and so my daughter at this point is an adult, but when she was little, I mean, I definitely tried to subscribe to as much of this as possible, and when I hear people's parenting styles, I cringe and I try to offer as much of this stuff as and when I hear people's parenting styles, I cringe and I try to offer as much of this stuff as possible. I don't have the eloquent language that you have and all the different, like the nuance of dealing with this diagnosis and stuff like that. But people are like wait, what you know? And I just love hearing it coming from you and the stories and just how the kids react and the role modeling of you and the stories and just how the kids react and the role modeling of that and the implications of it. And when I hear it from another therapist the way that you're explaining this, and especially a therapist that works with the children themselves and I hear like, okay, wow, yes, not for nothing. And the adults come to us later. You know, not for nothing. The kids, the people have problems with their own partners. So there's so much stuff in here, so it's just so beautiful and so rich, thank you. And with that, we're going to pause here.

Emma Viglucci:

This is an already very long conversation and we actually go for a longer time, and I decided to break this down into two podcasts, so I found this to be a good point to stop the recording so that you have enough material here to help you in your parenting of a neurodivergent child, or any child for that matter. You just tweak it. And also, what I love about this conversation so far and actually keeps coming up as we continue this conversation is that you could see how, what's happening with the child and in the parenting, that potentially the way that you were parented, how that affected you as well. So I'm listening to this conversation with so many different ears. I'm having so much fun with Paulina I hope you did too so far and so I'm going to pause this here. The next episode is going to come out in two weeks. Stay tuned for that.

Emma Viglucci:

For part two of this, the conversation continues, and we actually talk about what happens when you say no constantly to your child and as a parenting tactic. So we talk about that. We talk about how to do transitions. We talk about how to do co-parenting. A lot of times, from the stories that I hear from you guys, when there's problems in the home or difficult moments in the home, it's because both parents are trying to take care of the situation and just things escalate and then a behavior problem becomes a fight between the parents, right, and so I'm sure you could relate to that.

Emma Viglucci:

So we will be talking about all of that and more in part two. So stay tuned for that, and I hope you enjoyed this episode. I know that it's packed with value, so hopefully things resonated for you and you could use them immediately for yourself and again listen with that third ear and see what that means for you as a person, how you were parented, what you might need as a person as well, and you could bring that into your own personal growth. Stay tuned for the next one. In the meantime, have a fabulous next couple of weeks and I will see you at the next one. Bye.

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Emma K Viglucci, LMFT

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