Successful Relationship with Emma

Legal Matters of the Heart, from Prenups to Divorce, and Beyond with Leona Krasner (Ep. 27)

• Emma Viglucci • Episode 27

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We are totally in love and decide to go exclusive, move in together, get engaged, get married, have children… But wait, we have to consider what’s the best way to go about the practical side of these steps… 

When we fall in love and are feeling all mushy, we don’t usually consider the practical strategies that might be helpful to have in place to create a smooth and harmonious life… We don’t consider what might be needed to be protected against unfortunate events and to create safety in the relationship. 

Prenups, postnups and the like might get a bad rap for representing cautiousness about the partner and what their future might hold.  

But there is so much more that goes along with creating legal documents and having financial strategies in our relationship. The documents and strategies don’t exist in a vacuum. They are part of a more meaningful conversation and a larger plan that protects the partners and their future.

What I love about this topic is that having these adulting pieces in place creates emotional security as well. The relationship dynamics are no longer informed by possible powerplays, doubt, fear, distrust, lack and so on. Everyone knows where they stand and the status of things, and are off on equitable and transparent footing. Which actually is a healthy way to start a joint life…   

In this episode, I have a phenomenal conversation with Leona Krasner, a Family Attorney, about all the different legal needs throughout the lifespan of a relationship. We cover dating to post divorce if that’s the couple’s fate, and special circumstances that might arise. We have a lighthearted and very warm and mushy conversation considering the topic.   

Super thoughtful and resourceful. 

Hope you enjoy it! 

 

*Visit the Episode’s Page for the Video, related content, info about the guest, other resources AND to get our FREE Relationship Enrichment Mini Course!   

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DISCLAIMER: This content is meant to support your Journey and not as a replacement for professional assistance. Additionally, the ideas and resources provides by our guests are their ideas and recommendations alone and not necessarily a reflection of the host’s.



Emma Viglucci:

Hello, lovelies, and welcome to another episode. I am so excited for today's conversation I have with Leona Krasner, who is a family attorney, and we cover all of the different legal things that couples might need in their life, throughout their marriage and lifetime. So not only do we cover what happens from the beginning of moving in together and possibly then getting engaged all through the way to the end of later in life in the relationship and possibly, if they happen to go down the path of divorce, what are some things to consider and do about that. We cover so many yummy things that people might not think about when they're first getting together, to prepare them for a journey that's satisfying and worry-free, so that you prepare for the future, no matter what the future holds, and they create security and stability and smoothness in the life from the beginning. Stay tuned, you're in for a treat in the life from the beginning. Stay tuned, you're in for a treat. Let me read you her bio and then we'll say hello to Leona.

Emma Viglucci:

Leona Krasner is a founder and managing partner of Krasnet Law, a family law firm helping folks in New York and New Jersey with their family law needs. Leona works to ensure that she and her team provide compassion, solution-focused and flawless execution for each client. When not practicing law, leona enjoys helping students attain merit-based scholarships through her company Krasnit Review, organizing concerts for children through her nonprofit organization Tools for Tots and Teens, and having adventures with her husband and two-year-old. Without further ado, here's Leona. Hello Leona, so good to have you here today, thank you Such a pleasure to be here.

Emma Viglucci:

I'm super excited for this conversation. A lot of times when couples get together they don't think of these things. We're going to be talking about all things legal, so just the practical of life, not the romantical. The practical, because sometimes we get too mushy and we forget to take care of business right. So we're going to help them think of all the things that they need to think about so that their relationship and their life runs smoothly and without many hiccups, hopefully.

Leona Krasner:

I love it. Life runs smoothly and without many hiccups. Hopefully I love it, and the idea is that the mushy is important and we're often mushy at the very beginning, right? So what steps can we put in place at the beginning, middle and beyond, such that things remain wonderful and you guys are protected?

Emma Viglucci:

Oh, I love that Exactly. So I think that might cover why it's important for people to think about the legalities of life, right, but do you want to say a little bit more about that? Like, why should they even think about this stuff? If they're in love and everything's beautiful and they want to have a happy life forever, they don't believe in divorce and they're going to be together forever, why should they think about these things?

Leona Krasner:

So the biggest reason why your relationship doesn't work out, in my experience as a family lawyer, is due to finances, in particular. Not knowing about the finances either mutual finances or the other partner's finances finances or the other partner's finances and having there be a situation of financial control or a gambling issue or a debt issue or a secret wealth issue. These are the kinds of things that really break up relationships and marriages. And so, from the get-go, being very clear and open and honest about what exists and also about what the plan needs to be going forward is a lovely starting point, such that it just that's how we began the relationship. That is how we continue the relationship. My husband and I do what's called financial review Supposed to do it every month, right when I built out a spreadsheet of all of our different accounts and we pop in there, review it all, so we know and have that transparency of what's going on, and that really reduces the stress, I'd say, for both of us.

Emma Viglucci:

I love that. Definitely, building and practices is very important, right? So maybe we could talk more about that as we go. And I love what you said, that finances is one of the biggest thing.

Emma Viglucci:

Usually, when people come to us for couples therapy, some of the misconceptions are. Or when I hear people outside of the context of therapy, they're like, oh well, he or she cheated. Therefore, that's how you get divorced and, from my experience, that is not the reason people get divorced. And thank you for confirming that, because, yes, we do get through infidelity most of the time and skate, that's usually not the reason why people get divorced. So, yay, thank you for that.

Emma Viglucci:

So money, it makes sense. It makes sense. So it's not even that we have nothing in common anymore. We don't get along. We can't have the fun things thing coming anymore. We don't get along. We can't have the fun things. These are the things that trouble people. That's why they come to couples therapy. Right, they think that those things are going to lead to divorce. So, nope, we can work through those things. That's so funny, I love it. So we're going to have a financial conversation alongside a legal conversation, it sounds like. So this is so fun, not my cup of tea. So I'm so happy to have experts on for these kinds of things, so happy that you're here for this. So why don't we start at the beginning of the relationship? A couple decides to move in together, maybe give it a trial run, right what might be some legal things that they might want to consider slash financial to set things on the right path so that they prevent messes later, or just to address some of the things that you mentioned.

Leona Krasner:

Okay. So, relationships going well. You guys like each other enough to want to move in together. That is awesome. What I think is very important is to get a good sense of sort of what is it going to look like to pay for the things, right? So who's paying the rent? Is that going to be split or not? Who's paying utilities? Who's paying for Netflix? Who's paying for groceries? I mean, truly right. I think those are important questions. To just make sure it's clear, make sure it's written down in some capacity. Does it need to be a formal contract? Not necessarily. Unless you guys have been living together for a very long period years and years then you may want to think about it. But even getting into some form of writing text message, email, hey. So here's the plan as I understand it. Right, it could be friendly. You like this person, right? You're living with them. Hopefully, things are wonderful, but having a clear understanding of who's paying for what I think is very helpful.

Emma Viglucci:

And that spreadsheet that you mentioned before that you do with your husband is a perfect example of this. This is how we're tracking our stuff. There's the documentation right off the bat. So not that you're tracking and documenting things for the worst case scenario, but just so that life is easier. There's no misunderstandings, everything's clear. You're just setting a good precedent for yourself and for the relationship, setting good habits. Yes.

Leona Krasner:

I think that's correct.

Emma Viglucci:

Very good Good.

Leona Krasner:

So what kind of contrast would they consider if they've been together for a little, say, they are avid collectors of records or beanie babies or whatever. They're collecting some sorts of stuff. What happens, god forbid, if the relationship doesn't work out? What does that look like? These are called palimony type contracts and I see and create those on occasion. Very good, okay, perfect.

Emma Viglucci:

That's good to know and I love the idea of like Very good, Okay, perfect, that's good to know, and I love the idea of like have your life, do your thing, but just have an understanding of what might happen and have more clarity on you know who's this, what or how you might address this in the uneventful, eventful, uneventful thing that might happen.

Leona Krasner:

One thing also that's very important is anytime you are making more expensive purchases. Say, you guys live in a house together and there's a pool and it's the other person's house, but you pay $10,000 to have the pool fixed. Take a screenshot with your phone of proof that you paid the 10,000, right, the invoice, the receipt, proof of payment. Go ahead, take a picture, Because I've got a whole lot of cases where somebody pays for something. Many decades go by and then you go to the bank going hey, show me proof of that time that I paid for this. Sorry, we don't keep records that far, so it's your obligation to keep that record. Okay, and with your phone, just take that screenshot real easy. Email it to yourself such that you will always have it if you ever need it.

Emma Viglucci:

Yep, yep, yep. You know what a good observation. Because we used to have. The banks used to give you all the records once upon a time, right? Or they used to mail you the statements and they had the copies of all the checks that you wrote, right, like? This is really old school that doesn't exist anymore. So, yes, what is your little system for saving things, right? So I have a folder where, like, oh, the receipts go into a folder, so perfect. If I ever need anything, you can dig into that folder, you know, for whatever reason. So it doesn't have to be complicated, right? Just keep everything in one place, a file. It could even be a shared file, like if you're in good terms, but just keep the records.

Leona Krasner:

Be careful about the shared file, because if things go badly and then somebody goes in there and erases everything in the shared file, that would not be good. Yeah, yeah.

Emma Viglucci:

That's true, you know I'm wondering how and this is getting a little too techie now, but you know, with backups, right, so but then that gets into like you have to track all the old versions of things, so there's overrides and stuff, but yeah, but you're right. So watch out for that. You might want to keep your own little things, Squirrel your stuff away, you know.

Leona Krasner:

I recommend. It's really easy Take a picture with your phone and then send it to yourself as an email, to your personal email. That's it, you're going to have it forever. Knock on wood. Generally speaking, we keep our email addresses kind of forever. It's rare for them to be closed or shut down, so that's going to be a nice way to be able to later find that thing, should you ever need it, but label it with the date and a description, so it's not going to be as difficult to find God forbid, should you need it in the future.

Emma Viglucci:

Right, and you could tag it, you could label, you could create a folder in your email server and just put all those things in one place. That's another way, yeah for sure, yeah, create a little system. It doesn't have to be complicated, all right. So the next level would be oh, we're liking each other even more. We do want to make this more serious. Now we're thinking of getting married, we get engaged. Now there is the ring. People have all kinds of questions about this ring.

Leona Krasner:

Any thoughts about that and how to prepare for marriage in terms of legal terms, all right, so I will happily talk about the ring, should the parties decide that there are issues once they're married and they no longer wish to be together. What's important?

Emma Viglucci:

if you have, or even I'm sorry. So even if, or what if they break up before they actually get married? Maybe that's the question. First with this ring right.

Leona Krasner:

Okay. So they're engaged. They didn't get married. There's no prenup. What do we do, right? So the courts are pretty split about who owns the ring. So often parties need to agree. They need to come to some sort of understanding regarding what is going to happen as it relates to the ring. So my advice is this this is bigger than the ring conversation. I would say, yes, have the important conversations about your values and what you want long-term, early on. All right. So not maybe the first date. Hi, how are you? How many kids do you want? Not that right. You don't do that. But you know like I think I had these conversations with my husband over like our second, third, fourth, fifth dates Earlier on.

Leona Krasner:

You don't want to be dating this person for five years before you realize they don't want children and you do, or they don't believe in marriage and you've been waiting for a ring for four years, right? So getting a sense of what do you value? Do you want to live in the city or do you want to live in a house, somewhere? That's very important. Do you want to have zero children? One kid, 10 kids, something different? Do you like animals? Right? What's the long term plan? What is your approach around money. Have these kinds of conversations early during the get to know you stage. Keep in mind you're just getting to know a person, so no judgment. If they disagree, okay, but find out the answers to those important questions before you start banking on a ring that you're never going to get because the other person doesn't believe in marriage.

Emma Viglucci:

I love all those examples because those are all topics that I see when people come in for couples therapy, right. So it's so funny that they don't find these things out early enough. They're just banging around with these topics later on and they're disappointed that the other person is on a different sphere, right. So it's okay to be different people. The partners will be different, right. That's just, that's the way it is, and they're usually opposites, so people get hung up on that. But the values thing is very, very important, and the vision, and sometimes we could get on the same page about those things too. Nothing's impossible. But if it's really really, really discrepant and you're just not feeling it, too, nothing's impossible. But if it's really really really discrepant and you're just not feeling it, then that's the cue early on. So I love that you mentioned that Very good.

Leona Krasner:

Think about the non-negotiables Before you're even dating. Sorry to go backwards before you're even dating. What are your non-negotiables right? What will one, you not tolerate. But two, what must you have For me? I needed to be with someone who wanted children. I needed to be with somebody who wanted to get married, somebody ambitious, so they'd be out there working because I'm out there working and I'm looking for an equal right. Somebody who could keep up with me sorry, right In conversation where it's interesting and we're on the same page. Somebody who wants to raise children in the similar way that I do. So, before you even date, what do you need?

Emma Viglucci:

What do you want? Won't you abide? Yes, yeah. So figure that out for yourself first, and it doesn't have to be rigid, because these things can be negotiated or come to an agreement as you go. But if people are really, really set and like this is the life that I want, and somebody wants a completely different life, then that's it right off the bat, like you know right. So I love that.

Emma Viglucci:

So now going back to the ring, because then let's get the timetable going, so let's say that they get engaged, but they didn't have these conversations. And all this information comes out now and it's like, oh, maybe this was not the way to go, because, yeah, you do want to get married, but you don't want to have kids, or you want to have kids, but, gosh, you want to live under the water and I want to live on the moon. And how are we going to make that work, right? And so I was like, well, I don't know, I can't see this marriage working. And so maybe they break up, and now they're wondering what they're bringing who the ring belongs to. I see this here and there. And so they're not in a court system yet because they're not married, right, and I don't know that people go to court for this per se they might no-transcript legally it depends.

Leona Krasner:

All right, let's try it as? All right? And can I take your example a little bit further? Would that be all right? Yeah, of course. Hey, these people aren't married, but they got a house together, they have kids together, right? What does that look like financially? So, in fact, they can go to court, and I have several cases like this now, okay, where, hey, we bought this house together. I'm on the deed, so is she. You know, I put down this amount, she put down that amount. Here are all of the improvements that I made, right? That's why I said keep track. It's so important, right, right? So in that case, where the parties have purchased things together and then the relationship doesn't work, they're entitled to their share of that property, right? So that is very important to keep in mind. Regarding the ring, the ring depends, but if both parties are on the deed for a property and they haven't gotten married, each is entitled to some portion of that property.

Emma Viglucci:

So how interesting the way that I learned this when I, when I was in graduate school, they made us take a family law course, right, and so one of the things that we were taught about this, and tell me if this, this is Ian's ago, so tell me if this is still a thing in the legal system, maybe it's outdated. It doesn't work like this, I don't know. And what I learned was that the ring belongs depends on how the ring was given. If it was given as a gift, for a holiday, then it's a gift. Then it belongs to the person, the woman usually. And so if you give it to me for my birthday, for Christmas, for Hanukkah, whatever, then it's mine because it's a gift. But if you just give it to me on any occasion, now it's a contract to get married. If we're not getting married, then the contract is dissolved. Then the ring comes back to me because the contract wasn't honored. That's how I learned it, but I don't know what do you think about that? Is that cold water?

Leona Krasner:

So both people, generally speaking, want the ring and are fighting over it, and so each will bring different arguments to the table. Okay, so that theory is one theory I hear sometimes and it makes sense logically. To me it seems to make sense. It really depends. Is the ring an heirloom that the guy or gal got from a relative right? Is it something else Were the stones from? You know what I mean? There's a lot that goes on when it comes to these rings. Okay, so I appreciate you digging a little bit deeper. It really depends on the facts of the case.

Emma Viglucci:

Very good, yeah, as with anything, right, like all these cases, the lowest, the lower, therapies, therapy. But you can't just apply an over like, overarching, just umbrella statement to everything. You have to play with the specifics of each couple or case. Yes, I appreciate that, thank you. All right, so now moving this couple along, they do get married. Actually, yes, before they get married, around the time of getting married, they do a prenup, or they might consider doing a prenup, or what are your thoughts on this?

Leona Krasner:

What makes sense for couples, all right. So the media portrays prenups as this sneaky thing that rich people push upon poor people or people they want to take advantage of at the very last second and force them to sign A couple of things. To me, a prenup means you get to see the other person's financial screenshot. Right, you know what they're bringing into the marriage and you know that you know, because, should they quote unquote forget about any accounts or any property that later is discovered, that prenup goes out the window for you, okay, and you're entitled to some portion of the marital share of such accounts, perhaps their growth or something like that, because the other person was dishonest. Okay, this lets you know what each person is coming into the marriage with how much they earn, what they have in their accounts right now, how much debt they have, what they have in their accounts right now, how much debt they have, any stuff that they are. You know, physical property that they may not have told you about. This is all useful information that, shockingly often, people don't know about their partner, even when they've been married 5, 10, 20, 30, 40 years. This is vital information if you're entering into a serious, long-term marriage. That's very important. What else is important is the making of the plan as it relates to finances right, defining what's marital versus what is separate.

Leona Krasner:

But really, when we talk about what is considered marital property, right, honey, like, how are we going to live our lives? Into which account or accounts is our paycheck, our respective paychecks, going to go into? How often are we going to go out? What are we saving up for? What are we doing regarding vacations? Right, here's the time to chat about money and what that's going to look like.

Leona Krasner:

So it's not. Oh well, I'm going to collect your paycheck and my paycheck and you're going to have to come to me for permission to use any money, right, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Right, having this conversation before y'all get married means you're way less likely to make a boo-boo, right, and you get to set the ground rules regarding that. Regarding spousal support or alimony, thinking about the future, you know what? Whether you want the law to govern or you want to say nobody's getting spousal support, that's another conversation that can be had here Now. Prenups don't discuss kids in any capacity whatsoever, or else they're invalidated. But this is the springboard to have very important conversations, to hopefully do all you can to guarantee the success of your relationship.

Emma Viglucci:

Oh, I love that so pretty. There was something that you mentioned the different accounts and what's marital assets and what's individual assets or personal assets, so people that come in with. So let me clarify this for myself first, so make sure that I ask you the right question. So once you're married, anything that's earned thereafter is considered marital assets, is that right?

Leona Krasner:

Typically yes. Absence or prenup typically yes.

Emma Viglucci:

Right, okay, perfect. So then what's considered non-marital assets is stuff that people brought into the relationship, correct. But if they play around with the accounts or they use the money in different ways, then it gets commingled and then becomes marital assets. So it's no longer your money Now, it becomes our money, kind of thing. Is that right? It depends. It depends Okay, fair enough. Depends on what the thing is, that you put a pull in or what did you do with the money. Just kidding, okay. So any other clarity about that? Like, what should people consider if they worry about protecting what they're bringing into their marriage, anything that they need to put in place at that juncture then, so that it doesn't get commingled in a way that they don't think about? That might mess them up.

Leona Krasner:

So, generally speaking, at this point, folks are often entering into marriages a little bit later in life and not 18, 19, 20, 21. At least here in New York and New Jersey, where I practice, right so folks typically have their accounts and their own names already set up. That's usually before folks get married, where the paycheck goes, right. So they need to take the active step of creating one or more accounts together, right? So the idea is, I think, that having the conversations regarding kind of what the plan is is important, and to be sort of mindful of what you're doing, right. So where does the money currently go? If you guys are looking to make a certain purchase where separate assets are applied towards the marital property that's going to be purchased, keep track, take those screenshots, send them to your email such that you have them for the future.

Emma Viglucci:

So it boils down to what you contributed to anything that's joined and keep track of what you contributed. That's kind of how you keep it separate for later. If you need it later, gotcha, very good, okay.

Leona Krasner:

Exactly. The aim is to be prepared. I want your relationship to work forever. I don't want you to have to need me for your divorce or your custody matter or whatever it is, although I'm here if I become necessary. The idea is I to put the pieces and the steps and the procedures into place such that I'm not ever necessary.

Emma Viglucci:

Yeah, that's lovely. Thank you for that. Okay, so now they're like perfect, we have a prenup, we're feeling really safe and secure. I don't feel like I'm going to be taken advantage of or that I'm going to take advantage of you and vice versa. I'm comfy, I'm going to take advantage of you and vice versa. I'm comfy, I'm feeling safe. The mushy feelings are still here. We're going along with the marriage. Everything's feeling nice. What might be some things at that juncture that people might want to consider, once they have that commitment in place, any other legal matters that they should be putting in place for themselves as a couple?

Leona Krasner:

Okay, so are we still we're engaged getting married, or have we already gotten married?

Emma Viglucci:

At this point I think we got married, we're like each other a lot and we're feeling safe with this prenup, so we're ready to go Amazing.

Leona Krasner:

All right, marriage has happened. It was fantastic, right. So now, making clear sort of what the plan is as it relates to finances, assets, that kind of thing, keeping track and checking in, right. So is there the joint account? Which of you? So both of you should have access right Into that joint account. Both of you should be named on that account, have access. What monies are going into that account? What monies are leaving that account and for what? Okay, making plans, right.

Leona Krasner:

Having the conversations about what the plans are for the future and what your goals are right, talking about where you all see each other in five to 10 years, et cetera, sort of what's the plan? Is it the house? Is it the children? Is it a move somewhere? Is it an upgrade to a bigger, better, you know property that you guys are currently living in? Sort of what does that look like? You know what's the situation as it relates to vehicles? That's right. Continuing to have those conversations, being open and honest with one another and being curious, right. So year seven is rumored and there's research actually that backs it up. Year seven is supposed to be the most difficult one. We're after seven years together.

Leona Krasner:

So, interesting, right, that's the real test of the marriage, right, and a lot of you know relationships can flounder at this point, right? So be curious about the other person, right, greet them and be excited to greet them when they come home. One time I came home, husband didn't say hello. I'm like, excuse me, hi, I'm happy to see you. Right, so we had this little chat. Oh, I love that. Good for you, right? So we had this little chat. I love that. Good for you. Thank you for that being excited and showing that excitement to see the other person. We do a little something, my husband, that I call a relationship review, right, where we sit down every Sunday evening First thank the other person for all the ways they went above and beyond that week, then talk about what specific instances could have gone better, right? So, adjectives, we're not talking about the past, we're talking about the last week, right? What could have gone better? What do you need to do to make sure that that thing that either happened or didn't happen doesn't ever happen again? Right?

Emma Viglucci:

And then you debrief tweak, right, that is so good. I'm not going to put you in the spot and ask you if you guys have been to couples therapy. You don't have to answer that. But this is fabulous because all these tools and things that you have in place and practices are all things that we teach our couples to be preventative and to get on the same page and to synchronize and to create the love and to the appreciation and to nurture the things and to address the things. So thank you so much for reinforcing that. Coming from a family lawyer, people Yay, so good. Thank you for that, very good.

Leona Krasner:

And then, before you nag right, it becomes really easy to get into the spirit of nagging right, oh gosh yes.

Leona Krasner:

So think about the naggers in your life and think about how they make you feel every single time that they nag. Is that the kind of feeling that you want to be pushing on your partner in life, or do you want to cultivate a relation of gratitude and thankfulness? Will you thank the person throughout the week for the things that they do and give them a little bit of grace, understanding that they're probably also leading a little bit of a difficult you know, stressful life, where things sometimes happen and those things that you want to nag about you can save for relationship review time, especially after you thank them for all the things that they did.

Emma Viglucci:

Oh my gosh, that's so beautiful. Yeah, like I like to say, your partners are also on a journey, right, they're not going to be perfect. Also, and it's okay to have that grace. It's imperative that you have that grace because otherwise you're always going to be unhappy, people are not going to be, they're not going to be perfect. So if you're looking for that, you could always be dissatisfied. And having that grace and showing that appreciation ongoingly, yes, that's the key In that abundant and generous and compassionate heart so good. So now we're being preventative, we're being loving, we're investing in all of the right ways, we're nurturing the relationship. We're preventing crazy things In terms of planning anything else legal at this juncture, what else might people be considering?

Leona Krasner:

Okay, so as you grow wealth and may become very wealthy, you're going to want to begin to speak with professionals. Okay, so you're going to want to begin to speak with professionals. Okay, so you're going to want to look into finding a financial advisor to advise about what that looks like. As we enter, you know, the period where folks may want to have children or not, or doggies or kitties, right Speaking with a a wills and trust, trust and estate attorney to help create those documents. For God forbid, what if?

Emma Viglucci:

right, if you guys have children?

Leona Krasner:

God forbid you both die, right? What's going to happen to your children, right? What that's going to look like. Or without children, right? What's going to happen to all your stuff? What is going to look like as well? So having those conversations at the stage I'd say is very important as well, like state planning kind of stuff.

Emma Viglucci:

Very nice. Yes, trust for the kids, possibly when you're doing your financial planning, depends on how much wealth you have built or you have brought into the marriage to deal with all that stuff. Anything on insurances that you're able to throw into this mix, or maybe just refer them to make sure you covered that you have enough insurances in all the right places.

Leona Krasner:

Right so, speaking with a financial advisor who's well-versed, right so, maybe speaking offline with me or with Emma to see who we recommend in that respect, someone who really is able to bring all of the tools and all of the vehicles to the conversation to see who we recommend in that respect, someone who really is able to bring all of the tools and all of the vehicles to the conversation to see what kinds of insurance would make the most sense. Right so my husband, several months ago, took a fall, broke his wrist right. It sucked. Right so, had he had certain kinds of insurance? We actually, very funnily enough, were in a bathhouse with another couple and one of those people was our financial advisor. Right so he was there. So after the fact he told us about, you know, insurance that would have assisted with financial difficulties. God forbid that ever happen again. Right? So, thinking about what that looks like if one of you is a business owner, you know what it would look like if you God forbid were, due to a medical issue or something else, were unable to work for either a short period of time or extended period of time. Right, if you are looking to start a family, especially if you are going to be having the child. Well, even for both, either party, right.

Leona Krasner:

Is there a way that you can qualify for some sort of insurance such that you can get paid during this time? Looking into supplemental insurance of that sort and getting educated on that? I think that's very important. Speaking with a CPA, critical right, having a professional who can assist in that regard, and talking about setting up education accounts. We start hours up with our financial advisor, right? So if there's a child or children or one or more coming, making sure that that account is set up. So, speaking with a professional who's really well versed in all this different stuff that you might not even know that you need, but to them they will be able to guide you a little bit more. I am a family lawyer. I do not do financial advising, but just from my own experience, I found this to be helpful.

Emma Viglucci:

Yeah, yeah, thank you for that. You know it's so interesting Sometimes when the insurance conversation comes up in any context. It's kind of okay. So you need the homeowners, the health insurance, the life insurance, the disability insurance, the disinsurance, the car insurance, like all of the insurances you know, and if you have a business, that there's a whole other gamut there. And then they get, when you get a little older, the long-term insurance and, like you know, all these other things. So, definitely having a professional to advise you what stage of life, what might you need and what kind of policies or vehicles, and even even investment vehicles, so like, like, if you're having a financial conversation, all these things definitely add to your wealth, into your well-being overall in life. So beautiful, all right. So at this juncture, let's say that people have been together for a few years but they forgot to do the pre, do the prenup oh, they, that too, or whatever the story might be and they might consider a post-nap Any thoughts at that point what that might look like?

Leona Krasner:

So yeah, absolutely. We help folks with post-naps all the time. And the reasons why predominantly folks get post-naps are as follow. One, they were going to get a prenup and, gosh darn it, they got married first. So shortly after, right, shortly after they get married, they really want to do this thing. So I'd say, you know, within a year or two they want to get a post-nup for the same reasons they wanted to get a prenup Gotcha Nice. Another reason is the financial landscape for one or both parties changes. Third, the relationship is not doing so well and one party goes listen. Either you and I talk about this and you know we come to some sort of agreement and both execute this document, or I'm going to divorce you. And so those tend to be the three main reasons why people get post-nuptial agreements you know, I like that third one.

Emma Viglucci:

I think that what happens a lot also is like people like, oh, we might not make it, but I want to work on it, but just in case it doesn't. Well, so so to feel safe, while we'll try to make it work, can we please put this in place so I could be invested still invested in this and not be worried? Correct, yeah, very nice, good, all right. And then what if it doesn't work and they're like, okay, and they didn't do a post-nap, and now they're heading down the lane of divorce? Yes, any thoughts I'm sure you have plenty of. What's the best way to go about that so that they don't destroy themselves, their families, their future and create more drama than necessary? What's the easiest, simplest, most beautiful way that people could tackle about getting divorced, going about a divorce?

Leona Krasner:

So my advice is this I'll be touchy-feely first, then I'll be a little more practical after yes, good. So have your support network. So my advice is this I'll be touchy-feely first, then I'll be a little more practical after yes. So have your support network that you need to get taken care of is taken care of with them, and then have your team to get the practical work done.

Leona Krasner:

Okay, because often what I see and I don't mind this at all right, but I see folks come to me and give me the venting emotional. I'm just going to take him for what they're worth, right. But I see folks come to me and give me the venting emotional. I'm just going to take him for what they're worth, right. I'm going to not stop until I blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm going to use the kids as weapons. Stop, stop, right, hold on, hold on. Yeah, get the venting done out of the way and then think about what you really need, what the kids really need. Yeah, I'm ready to go to the ringers and really make a messy divorce. That takes a long time. It's crazy expensive. That's what really what somebody wants, right? I'm handling a divorce that's on year seven approximately, where they're fighting about toys, trains and tools.

Leona Krasner:

What come on they could have bought so many extra toys, trains and tools with the money they've been wasting on this really dumb divorce. We're in trial about bullshit. Sorry, emma, right. Why are we arguing about stupidity when y'all could have moved on such a long time ago, right? So have your venting people. Get your professionals, get your Emma, get Emma.

Emma Viglucci:

I was just going to throw in there, like you know, like venting even to family member and friends. You have to watch that too, because that just creates a whole other set of things as well. So, yes, of course, have support and know how to use your support, but definitely have a therapist, because all that stuff, the hooks, that's why you're in a divorce for seven years. That's not. You know what I mean. There's a lot of stuff going on there.

Leona Krasner:

Therapy will help and help you, not do a stuff messy you will help and and help you not to stop messy so you torture your life. Keep in mind all it takes for a divorce to eventually go through is for one person to want the divorce. I still love you, I still miss. One person needs to feel as though the relationship is irretrievable, irreconcilably broken down.

Emma Viglucci:

It only takes one I know right.

Leona Krasner:

So having that professional, having Emma, in place to assist you with the emotional kind of impact of this trauma just trauma, it is right, not an easy breezy, beautiful thing. Generally, right, deal with that part and then really thinking about what you want post-relationship, what's important to you, and then speaking with an attorney who can guide you on what you're actually entitled to, right? I mean, if the person on the other side only makes $100,000 per year but you want $20,000 of alimony a month, there's not enough money, it's not realistic, right? Right? So talking with a family lawyer and I'm happy to give a free consultation for whoever needs regarding what you're actually entitled to, perhaps you have been the person making more money in this relationship, Right? What's what some certain expectations can be on your end regarding having to pay spousal support or alimony to the other partner, having to even maybe pay counsel fees to the other side, whether you want this divorce or not.

Leona Krasner:

Having a clear understanding and clear expectations from the get-go, such that you don't get to court and scream and yell about something that there just isn't any likelihood that you can get. But gosh, darn it, you want to yell it because you're mad. That could be very expensive in terms of council fees. But it can be even more expensive in terms of parts of your life, just years and years of your life just I don't want to say wasted, but just spent on the stuff that could have ended quicker and you could have moved on to a much happier, healthier life sooner.

Emma Viglucci:

Oh, my goodness, that's so beautiful. Thank you, yes, I mean the money is expensive financially, but it's expensive to your soul, it's expensive to your lifestyle, it's expensive to your relationships, to your timetable, your life journey. Like it's expensive, right, like why are you wasting it this way Just fighting over silly things? Potentially? You're just being stubborn and it's sometimes unrealistic stuff, like you know, like the $20,000 example, if you can't get it, why are you still fighting for it? It's not going to happen, there's no money, you're not going to, you can't get money. That isn't there.

Emma Viglucci:

Yeah, I see some sometimes that kind of silly stuff happens Me too, I'm sure you do. That's what you do for a living. God bless you, Okay. So now people hopefully they were smart about it, they did the emotional work on the side so they don't bring that to the legal process and they could disentangle appropriately and kindly and intentionally and mindfully to the best that they can. And they are fair, whatever fair means, and everybody's as happy as they could be with how the decisions played out and now we're post-divorce. But there are some things that could still play out right Post-divorce. What might some of those things be in terms of the divorce process?

Leona Krasner:

So typically when folks get divorced right, so there's an order. There are things that one or both parties need to do. For example, somebody, if they're children, probably needs to pay child support, some portion of add-on expenses. Add-ons include in New York and New Jersey, but are not limited to unreimbursed medical expenses, education-related expenses, extracurricular expenses, summer care, child camp, extraordinary expenses, right? So one party may have to pay those or some portion thereof and they don't. Perhaps a house needs to get sold and isn't, or somebody sells it and doesn't give any money or the right amount of money to the other person, as they were supposed to do it. For example, someone's withholding a passport, or the children or something. So something that was supposed to have happened in the agreement isn't happening, right? So folks may need to go to court for something like that.

Emma Viglucci:

Yeah, okay, and then, assuming that they didn't get divorced and that things worked out well and they're still married and it's later, they've been together for a while and they're in life what might be some legal things that might come up later that people might have to deal with? Um, and maybe I don't know if I jumped the gun anything about custody before we move forward to if there wasn't a divorce. So let's go back to the divorce stage, to the divorce stage. So anything to highlight about custody, how to approach that or to keep in mind or how to go about that.

Leona Krasner:

The key, I think, is to think about what is best for your children. Right, you might decide you hate the other person with a fiery, burning passion, but you know that they're a good parent, or at least your children really enjoy spending time with that parent and nothing all that bad happened. And even if you don't like their new girlfriend or boyfriend or something like that, right. So thinking about the children first and not weaponizing them I see kids.

Leona Krasner:

Kids weaponized a lot. Yeah, comes to custody and listen, custody is a thing, whether people were married or not, right? So folks who are unmarried can, you know, break up and we'll have to deal with these kinds of things. Don't weaponize the children, right, or they're going to have to go and see Emma and Emma's colleagues for basically ever after because you screwed them up. Your children don't do it. It is your obligation as a parent to keep your adult stuff separate. Don't stoop to the level that you are hurting your kids.

Emma Viglucci:

Very good, yes, thank you. Okay, and so now maybe they didn't get divorced and we're in that later stage of life, or together for a bunch of years, and like there might be some some other legal things that we might have to consider in life, like what might be some other things.

Leona Krasner:

So I mean, I'm a family lawyer, so when things are amazing and folks are celebrating their 30th, 40th, 50th anniversary hopefully nobody's calling me, right. If somebody is calling me, it's usually because they've been married a long time 20 plus years. Kids are big, or relatively big high school, college beyond, right. The kids aren't the thing anymore, right? So they stuck it out right and are now ready to free themselves. So I think, as the children are leaving the nest, think about whether this relationship suits you, whether you come home happy and it makes you excited and feel like a load is coming off your shoulders when you walk through that door, or if the stress is piling on, okay. And your relationship after the kids are grown is going to be real, different than your first and second and third date. It's going to be different than the wedding day, right? So what are you looking for now that the kids are big, right? How do you want your relationship to go? Or is it? Do you want it to be done?

Emma Viglucci:

Right. Are there matters that you see at this juncture, like what might be some either custody or children or family issues that might come up that have nothing to do with the marriage, like what might be some other legal matters that, as a family lawyer, you deal with?

Leona Krasner:

So often the folks aren't in a good place, right? So one parent is withholding the children from another. One parent just left disappeared and the other for years, years, sometimes decades, right, and one person meets somebody new but is technically still married to that other person. That's more common, I think, actually right. You have marriages of convenience sometimes, where somebody you know enters into a marriage to help somebody out, get a green card right, whatever it is right those kinds of marriages.

Leona Krasner:

But then they meet somebody they actually love and want to be with right. So there are some sort of interesting complications there. What if one person's withholding the passport or refusing to allow the other parents to renew the passport right. But if one person wants to vaccinate the children and the other person does not, the court's position in New York and New Jersey is what is best for the children, right. That is what the court considers to be the most important, absent really good reasons. Generally speaking, the courts do think that vaccination is in the best interest of children, so that's something to keep. Thank you for sharing that.

Leona Krasner:

Of course, what if one person develops drug problem, a drinking problem, a will not work, or gets perpetually fired problem work or gets perpetually fired problem? What if you've got a situation where god forbid somebody develops very serious psychiatric issues right. One person gets really, really injured right. These kinds of things happen and they have a toll on marriages sometimes. So my recommendation is this I recommend speaking with professionals right, Scheduling a consultation. Even if you have no intention of divorcing ever or say you're in a culture that doesn't believe in divorce, there are still options that could protect you, protect your children and make clear what the plan should be going forward.

Emma Viglucci:

Very good and also I think I love that add-on. You might want to have a council so that you know how to structure or tweak your setup, just so that you feel comfy, so that you feel safe, so that you feel secure, just for your own mental health. And then, god forbid, something goes wrong. Then you're set and you're good to go, but it might be preventative potentially, or it might make that life easier later if you happen to go down that path. Very nice, beautiful. Thank you for walking through the legal journey of people, of couples.

Leona Krasner:

This was wonderful. Really enjoyed this chat. I love the little avenues that you allowed me to take and that we took together, and you were fantastic. Thank you so much for this opportunity.

Emma Viglucci:

Oh, my pleasure. Thank you, leona, and any last minutes, like last comment, as a goodbye closure statement that you want to offer the listeners? Yes.

Leona Krasner:

Your job is ensuring your happiness, but you were also in the driver's seat to determine whether you're pursuing that happiness or not. My advice for you is this Start pursuing that happiness as soon as possible, today, right now. Think about what you need to start doing in your life right now. Whether you're with a partner, not with a partner, dating not dating married kids. What do you need to establish in your life so you could be happy now?

Emma Viglucci:

Oh, my goodness, you're a breath of fresh air. Thank you so much for sharing time with me, wisdom and so much knowledge. I really appreciate you and anytime we could have more conversations. There's a lot of good stuff here, so I would love to continue our relationship in that way and, to the listeners, I will see you at the next one. Bye.

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Emma K Viglucci, LMFT

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